Pollination and Seed Saving questions

followingdream · January 1, 2015

I'm curious about a couple things. First, I've noticed all of the seed saving videos and comments I find show people smashing an entire tomato to get the guts out. Is there any reason why it's done this way? I have limited gardening space and a family of seven - I can't imagine wasting food to save seeds if there's another way to do it. I've saved seeds from last years tomatoes by removing them as I sliced the tomatoes up for dinner. Why is the "normal" method to smash the whole fruit?

Second is a pollination question. A few of my tomatoes (all in containers) were flowering when it started to get cold, so I brought them in for the winter. All flowers died (none set fruit), but then some set new flowers. I have no pollinators in the house over winter, so I did some research. Seems a lot of people swear by vibrating toothbrushes, shaking plants, or wind motion for pollination. I diligently tooth-brushed flowers, carefully shook plants, and have a fan going. I even left the rock tumbler on the table for constant vibration just for good measure. Nothing. Every flower since I brought the plants in last fall has opened, looked lovely, and then withered and turned brown. No fruit set. The flowers don't fall off, just dry up and stay there. Any advice for winter pollination?

KarenO · January 1, 2015

Hi there, welcome to Tomatoville

You can certainly save seeds a few at a time and use the rest of the tomato if saving just a few for your own use. If saving large amounts of seed it is easier to use several whole fruits.
As to growing tomatoes indoors in winter and having them set fruit, are you using supplemental light? My guess is that the light is insufficient for fruit to develop indoors, especially at this time of year in Northern zones.
KarenO

followingdream · January 2, 2015

Thank you KarenO! I have a grow light above them. One of those expensive fluorescent kind specifically for plants. The few that had tomatoes growing when they came in continued to grow their fruit until it was picked - but that was already set and growing when it came in. The light gets turned off when I go to bed, and on again when I get up to simulate daylight. I suppose I have a 12-hour timer system I could plug it in to if it's a problem with timing. I didn't know that light would effect fruit set. Learned something new.

KarenO · January 2, 2015

Light, water, temperature, humidity, nutrients... All could be factors . too cool or too hot could be the issue or any combination. It's not easy to grow tomatoes indoors, or we would all be doing it

KarenO

AlittleSalt · January 2, 2015

I took this picture yesterday. On the bottom left are the seeds. I cut from the stem end down - then cut in half stem end down again. Quartering the tomato. It makes getting the seeds out easy and there is still plenty of the tomato left to eat. Hope this helps.

drew51 · January 2, 2015

If you brought the plant in from outside with no transition to the weaker grow light, yes buds will be lost for about a month. Until it becomes accustomed to the new conditions.
The light needs to be inches above the plant, the closer the better, be careful, not to burn plant. And that is correct no pollinators are needed. As Karen mentions other conditions must be right too.

Fusion_power · January 2, 2015

Many varieties are sensitive to temperature and humidity. They won't set fruit so long as it is a steady 72 degrees. They need fluctuation from about 60F to 85F. This is why greenhouse tomatoes are carefully selected for ability to set fruit under low light and constant temperature conditions. I would still suspect a problem with pollination so go back and look at your methods to see if you are actually moving pollen to the pistil. You might also consider getting a vegibee from http://vegibee.com/

Several greenhouse adapted varieties are readily available, Cobra, Trust, and Tropic are available from Tomato Growers Supply. They used to sell a few other varieties but I suspect the market is limited so they reduced to a more manageable number.

travis · January 2, 2015

The reason some seed savers essentially destroy the entire tomato to extract seeds is because they are collecting thousands of seeds for sale or large scale trades ... each tomato providing well over 100 seeds to the endeavor.

After cutting a tomato in half on the "equator," I have found you can gently squeeze a hundred or more seeds from a beefsteak tomato, along with enough gel and juice to properly ferment the batch. Then you can dip the severed halves of the tomato in scalding water to loosen the skin, and use the remaining flesh for canned sauce or immediate use.

I also have cut tomatoes in half and extracted most of the seeds from each locule with the tip of a knife, and then used the tomato for fresh salsa or chunked up for a green salad.

If after extracting seeds, you do not have enough liquid to ferment the batch, just add a little water. Not too much. Just enough to float the seeds and gel so that the ferment will not dry out in the required few days it takes to develop a mold cap.

There are other methods besides fermentation to clean and sanitize seeds that are appropriate to small batch seed cleaning. You can google those methods by using "cleaning tomato seeds with trisodium phosphate" and maybe "cleaning tomato seeds with oxy clean."

I've used trisodium phosphate, and it works well. But it is caustic to your skin, and is a real pollutant to creeks and rivers, where most of our sink water ends up. I've never used the oxyclean method, so cannot comment on that.

My preferred method is a short ferment followed by floating off the trash, and a good rinse through a wire screen strainer. And then a one to two minute bath in 1 part household bleach (Clorox or Purex) and 4 parts tap water ... again followed by a really good rinse with tap water through a screen strainer.

followingdream · January 2, 2015

I think the problem lies in my lighting. I have two plants that are taller than the rest. In order for the light to be just above them, it's 18-inches or more above the rest. Perhaps I'll lie the two taller ones on their side and lower the light. Or I could move the two taller ones under a different light and lower the light to just above the shorter plants.

As for seed saving, I've fermented several varieties this year, and you're right Travis, I usually get 100-200 seeds per tomato (sometimes more from larger tomatoes, less from smaller tomatoes). I figure for the extra two minutes it takes to scoop the seeds into a jar while I'm cutting tomatoes for BLTs, I get a pretty decent return on seeds. More than enough to trade, plant, and sell a few too. I just don't understand if I can get so many seeds and still eat the fruit, why so many people do it the other way. Surely I must be missing something. I suspect that it has more to do with many of the tutorials coming from larger gardeners who have extra fruit that they won't be eating anyway. I suppose if I had an overabundance and the fruit was going to go to waste anyway, I'd rather smash the whole thing for seeds than let it rot.

I use either the knife blade (when I'm slicing the tomatoes), or a plastic baby spoon (when I'm reaching into a tomato that I'm not slicing up). Both seem to work very well for removing all of the seeds and gel quickly and efficiently while leaving the meaty part intact. The red tomato I was in the middle of removing seeds (note the bottom right parts still have seeds). The yellow one is one we were enjoying as a snack (seeds already removed). The red one gave me 130 seeds and the yellow I got 240 seeds from.

Also, I only ferment (takes about a week), rinse and dry. No chemicals for us. We're trying to do everything as naturally as possible. Might take a while longer, but I think it's worth it.

Thank you for the link Fusion_power. I will check that out!

joseph · January 2, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by followingdream

I have limited gardening space and a family of seven - I can't imagine wasting food to save seeds if there's another way to do it. I've saved seeds from last years tomatoes by removing them as I sliced the tomatoes up for dinner. Why is the "normal" method to smash the whole fruit?

Squeezing the juice/seeds out of tomatoes and eating the rest of the fruit works fine for a few tomatoes.

I had approximately a 700 foot row of tomatoes that looked like this at the end of the season this year... I don't need to worry about not wasting food. I am not limited by the amount of food I can grow, I am limited by things like the ability to harvest, and process. I have a limited number of friends. We can only eat or preserve so many tomatoes. Besides, I don't even like to eat raw tomatoes. Yuck!

I try to eat all the squash I use for seed saving. But inevitably, eventually I end up just opening the squash and taking out the seeds and throwing away the food. I can only eat so much squash before the weather turns too nasty to be able to store them any longer.

followingdream · January 2, 2015

Wow Joseph! That's a lot of downed tomatoes! I definitely understand why you'd smash them instead of taking the time to cut them all up and eat them. Thank you for sharing your photo!

maf · January 2, 2015

followingdream, I use the exact same methods to extract seeds as you and travis, depending on what the tomato is going to be used for; no waste around here!

Not sure what is happening with your indoor pollination problem. A couple of ideas are that the humidity might be too low or the plant gets blasted by a heater. What variety is it? This also might make a difference.

followingdream · January 2, 2015

maf, the only tomatoes left are Maglia Rosa, Black Krim (really tall), Black Zebra, and Cherokee Purple. We have really high humidity (which I'm sure could also be a problem), and the temp is pretty much the same all the time. The table the plants are on is away from any vents. Just a fan blowing in the general direction, but far enough away that it doesn't cool them off (just enough to move some air around). They've been losing leaves now lately, so I think there's something else going wrong. Like I said, maybe too much moisture inside. I just got back from the store and they have their first seed display up so maybe I'll just toss the old plants and start fresh in a couple of months. I still want to try indoor pollination though. I'd love to have fresh food in the winter time too.

January 1, 2015	#1
followingdream Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Minnesota Posts: 13	Pollination and Seed Saving questions I'm curious about a couple things. First, I've noticed all of the seed saving videos and comments I find show people smashing an entire tomato to get the guts out. Is there any reason why it's done this way? I have limited gardening space and a family of seven - I can't imagine wasting food to save seeds if there's another way to do it. I've saved seeds from last years tomatoes by removing them as I sliced the tomatoes up for dinner. Why is the "normal" method to smash the whole fruit? Second is a pollination question. A few of my tomatoes (all in containers) were flowering when it started to get cold, so I brought them in for the winter. All flowers died (none set fruit), but then some set new flowers. I have no pollinators in the house over winter, so I did some research. Seems a lot of people swear by vibrating toothbrushes, shaking plants, or wind motion for pollination. I diligently tooth-brushed flowers, carefully shook plants, and have a fan going. I even left the rock tumbler on the table for constant vibration just for good measure. Nothing. Every flower since I brought the plants in last fall has opened, looked lovely, and then withered and turned brown. No fruit set. The flowers don't fall off, just dry up and stay there. Any advice for winter pollination?

January 1, 2015	#2
KarenO Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 5,931	Hi there, welcome to Tomatoville You can certainly save seeds a few at a time and use the rest of the tomato if saving just a few for your own use. If saving large amounts of seed it is easier to use several whole fruits. As to growing tomatoes indoors in winter and having them set fruit, are you using supplemental light? My guess is that the light is insufficient for fruit to develop indoors, especially at this time of year in Northern zones. KarenO

January 2, 2015	#3
followingdream Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Minnesota Posts: 13	Thank you KarenO! I have a grow light above them. One of those expensive fluorescent kind specifically for plants. The few that had tomatoes growing when they came in continued to grow their fruit until it was picked - but that was already set and growing when it came in. The light gets turned off when I go to bed, and on again when I get up to simulate daylight. I suppose I have a 12-hour timer system I could plug it in to if it's a problem with timing. I didn't know that light would effect fruit set. Learned something new.

January 2, 2015	#6
drew51 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Sterling Heights, MI Zone 6a/5b Posts: 1,302	If you brought the plant in from outside with no transition to the weaker grow light, yes buds will be lost for about a month. Until it becomes accustomed to the new conditions. The light needs to be inches above the plant, the closer the better, be careful, not to burn plant. And that is correct no pollinators are needed. As Karen mentions other conditions must be right too.

January 2, 2015	#7
Fusion_power Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,250	Many varieties are sensitive to temperature and humidity. They won't set fruit so long as it is a steady 72 degrees. They need fluctuation from about 60F to 85F. This is why greenhouse tomatoes are carefully selected for ability to set fruit under low light and constant temperature conditions. I would still suspect a problem with pollination so go back and look at your methods to see if you are actually moving pollen to the pistil. You might also consider getting a vegibee from http://vegibee.com/ Several greenhouse adapted varieties are readily available, Cobra, Trust, and Tropic are available from Tomato Growers Supply. They used to sell a few other varieties but I suspect the market is limited so they reduced to a more manageable number.

January 2, 2015	#8
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	The reason some seed savers essentially destroy the entire tomato to extract seeds is because they are collecting thousands of seeds for sale or large scale trades ... each tomato providing well over 100 seeds to the endeavor. After cutting a tomato in half on the "equator," I have found you can gently squeeze a hundred or more seeds from a beefsteak tomato, along with enough gel and juice to properly ferment the batch. Then you can dip the severed halves of the tomato in scalding water to loosen the skin, and use the remaining flesh for canned sauce or immediate use. I also have cut tomatoes in half and extracted most of the seeds from each locule with the tip of a knife, and then used the tomato for fresh salsa or chunked up for a green salad. If after extracting seeds, you do not have enough liquid to ferment the batch, just add a little water. Not too much. Just enough to float the seeds and gel so that the ferment will not dry out in the required few days it takes to develop a mold cap. There are other methods besides fermentation to clean and sanitize seeds that are appropriate to small batch seed cleaning. You can google those methods by using "cleaning tomato seeds with trisodium phosphate" and maybe "cleaning tomato seeds with oxy clean." I've used trisodium phosphate, and it works well. But it is caustic to your skin, and is a real pollutant to creeks and rivers, where most of our sink water ends up. I've never used the oxyclean method, so cannot comment on that. My preferred method is a short ferment followed by floating off the trash, and a good rinse through a wire screen strainer. And then a one to two minute bath in 1 part household bleach (Clorox or Purex) and 4 parts tap water ... again followed by a really good rinse with tap water through a screen strainer.

January 2, 2015	#12
maf Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: England Posts: 512	followingdream, I use the exact same methods to extract seeds as you and travis, depending on what the tomato is going to be used for; no waste around here! Not sure what is happening with your indoor pollination problem. A couple of ideas are that the humidity might be too low or the plant gets blasted by a heater. What variety is it? This also might make a difference.