Blue Crab Shells and JB Grubs and Other Bugs and Chitin

[GrowSeeds]

I have not tried this and is just for your information fellow Tomatoville Members.
Maybe some Tomatoville Members will find it helpful or interesting.

Correspondence to and from Professor Rodrigo Rodrigus - Kábana edited

To
Distinguished Professor Rodrigo Rodrigus - Kábana

Dear Distinguished Professor Rodrigo Rodrigus - Kábana
I came across your writings listed at your web page [...}
and if you can let me know if crab shell chitin is good for the home gardener to decrease nematodes in the garden. [...]
I read somewhere that white grubs have chitin to eat with and was also wondering if crab shell chitin would effect them.


From
Distinguished Professor Rodrigo Rodrigus - Kábana

Dear [...]
Incorporating crab shells or crab shell chitin in soil will significantly suppress nematode problems in home gardens. The amounts needed are equivalent to 4-5 tons/acre. The material should be incorporated and is most effective if it is covered with clear plastic mulch for a period of no less than 3 weeks. This allows for decomposition of the material and estimualtion of chitinolytic microorgisms in soil. These microorganisms are inimical to nematodes, insects, and anything that contains chitin. I cannot answer your question on grubs but my guess is that they would also be affected. There will be a lot of nitrogen in the soil following treatment with chitin or crab shells, so you would need to check soil pH and add lime if necessary. Also, I would recommend that you plant first vegetables or plants that require high nitrogen levels, e.g., corn.

I added the bold to the message as I understand that sense he is not a JB Grub expert he can not say about them but that anything that has chitin it will work on.
LINKS

web page of Professor Rodrigo Rodrigus - Kábana
http://www.auburn.edu/~rodrirr/

papers by Professor Rodrigo Rodrigus - Kábana
http://www.auburn.edu/~rodrirr/publi...blications.htm

[carolyn137]

Trying to use chitin, and it doesn't matter if it's blue shell crab, shrimp or whatever has long been suggested, but not found to be that effective from the folks I know who garden in nematode infested soil.

Did you notice that even the Prof said the chitin has to break down first? And how many years do you think that would take?

Look in the Problem Solver or elsewhere above for the U of FL webpage on IPM nematode control and you'll find several better suggestions, but the best is to add lots and lots of organic material to the affected soil.

Nematodes build up to large concentrations where the soil is primarily sandy. They move from sand grain to sand grain via the water shell around each grain.

Your mission is to make those sand grains be further apart so that they can't build up to destructive populations.

Ebon Rye, Marigolds, both are iffy for most folks b'c it means taking the whole garden area out of use for a whole season so that they can both be tilled in after they grow and even then control is marginal.

Adding molasses, salt and who knows what else has been suggested simply does not work.

So I urge you to find that U of FL IPM info if you can, and you should be able to via Google, but I've already told you the essence of what works best, and that's to add more and more and more organic material to separate the sand grains.

Hybrid varieties with N ( nematode ) tolerance are not that effective either b'c it's only tolerance, not resistance.

Grow, when did you notice that you had an N problem and what have you done so far to try and control it if it's really bad?

Unfortunately almost all the folks I know who have had really bad problems have ended up growing their plants in pots for most of their tomatoes.

[angelique]

Hi Carolyn,

Groworganic sells shrimp shells in meal form. According to their website, it only takes 4-8 months to be effective. Here is a link to one of their related products:

http://www.groworganic.com/item_F195...eal4604Lb.html

I am also curious to know if I am able to use this product as a fertilzer for my winter veggies. In other words, while it is fixing my soil for my matters, it is also providing nutrients for my lettuce, chard, peas, etc.

I also would like your opinions on cover crops such as mustard mixes, rape, radish, etc. and their ability to reduce/control nematodes.

Last Fall, I used a mustard mix from groworganc.com. here is a link to the product.

http://www.groworganic.com/item_SCN755_MustardMix.html

As usual, thanks for your expertise.

[GrowSeeds]

Carolyn I don't have a grub or nematode problem. I was dong some research on Blue Crab shells added to soil as years ago some of my realtives in Florida when they went fishing and crabing would break up the crab shell and put it in the garden and wondered what it was doing as their gardens looked good. When I wrote Professor Rodrigo Rodrigus - Kábana I was also reading about a state (and I do not remember which one it was) was having a state wide JB problem and then asked him also about grubs and chitin as I understood that the JB grubs had chitin to eat with. I posted the information about chitin and grubs as an just for your information as an interesting read.

Thank You for stating it is of no help to the home gardener with a nematode problem.

[carolyn137]

Thank You for stating it is of no help to the home gardener with a JB problem.

I didn't say anything about the grub problem Grow, just about nematodes.

And Angelique, I'll get back to you later. I'm here only b'c I was over at AOL and recieved a PM notice and had to switch back here to IE and Tville to see if it was the one I was expecting.

[GrowSeeds]

Thanks Carolyn I edited the post to nematode problem.

[carolyn137]

I am also curious to know if I am able to use this product as a fertilzer for my winter veggies. In other words, while it is fixing my soil for my matters, it is also providing nutrients for my lettuce, chard, peas, etc.

*****

Angelique, I can't answer the question b'c I don't even know how chitin is supposed to kill nematodes, nor if it really does work, based on the feedback I've seen from the few I know who have used it.

In addition, as the blurb stated, one has to have very moist conditions to break down the chitin, so I can't see that it would be broken down enough to provide adequate nutrients for your veggies. But again, I don't have any experience with chitin and so am just guessing, based on the long times it takes for hair, fingernails and similar to break down in the soil.

((I also would like your opinions on cover crops such as mustard mixes, rape, radish, etc. and their ability to reduce/control nematodes.))

I have no opinion Angelique. Of all the reading I've done to help others, since I personally do not have a nematode problem, at those University sites where they do discuss possibilities I've not seed mustard, rape, radish, being suggested.

At that U if FL site I referred to there were some other organic suggestions made, but not the ones you mention. And I mentioned some of those above.

My feeling is this:

If there were a really effective way of ridding soils of pathogenic nematodes, the word would spread very fast, and that would be it. But that's not the case b'c everything under the sun has been suggested.

And being the skeptic that I am I would never read and believe completely the blurbs that are written for various products at places where they are sold. I'd Google info and stick with University websites where things have been tested, with controls. Peaceful Valley Farms is a good place for many things, as you know, and there are others like them, but they don't do the research, they just try to sell products to make a living.

Or I'd ask in a public message Forum for reports back from those who do have nematode problems and what they do and have done to help the situation and what has worked and what hasn't. But again, there have to be adequate controls so any results are meaningful.

In the end I am of the opinion that adding lots and lots of organic matter to the nematode infested soil is the way to go b'c if you do, they cannot multiply to destructive populations and thus cannot be as great a problem.

Sorry I can't be more specific in answering you directly about the radishes, rape, etc., but as I said, I've not run across those anywhere as nematode controls although it's very possible that there is info via Googling, which I haven't done re updating myself re nematodes in the past year or so.

Finally, I would never deliberately grow mustard anywhere's near my gardens. We have plenty of wild mustard here and when it goes to seed it seeds everything and everywhere. Perhaps your mustard mix is different, but if you sent me a package I'd scan it for mustard seeds.

[angelique]

Hi Carolyn,

Thanks for all the info. I do not have any more of the cover crop left. I can reorder it, if you would like. Per the description online,the ground cover has:

Comprised of 30% Yellow Mustard, 20% White Mustard, 30% Oriental Mustard, and 20% Oil Seed Radish.

I planted it very late. It is still only a few inches high. Per the description, the mix should reach 4-5' high. My understanding is that I should mow/weedwack it about a month before planting. Right before planting, I am supposed to till in the ground cover.

I am not too worried about that area. 2 Years ago, I grew tomatoes there. I have lots of problems w/nematodes. Last year, I grew cukes and squash w/o any problems. This year, I will be using the area for c and zs again.

I do have another bed that I has nematodes. I plan to grow 6 tomato plant there this year. I have added lots of compost to it over the last year. I currently, have parsley, peas, dill, tulips and fennel in this bed.

Thanks again.

Angelique