Crazy idea, or not?

[MarcH.]

My father in law has a fenced in garden in Louisiana. The soil was good and rich when he first had it tilled up. Since then he's removed every plant and weed at the end of each season and then tilled the soil. Now its complete mud from all the rain and its just bare soil that sat there all winter. Its been used for 3 years and this will be the 4th year, last year not being that good...but not that bad either.

Anyways, I would think he would benefit from putting some organic matter into the garden. I got him a 50 lb bag of organic fert and will work on setting him up some wood chip rows when I go down there whenever I can.

He has ton of land with hardwood and pine forests. Some of the pine is being harvested currently. Would it be a good idea to kinda scrape the top 4-6 inches of soil on the floor of the forest and mix that into the rows of the garden? Or am I just thinking crazy.

I plan to do a cover crop in the fall for him as well.

Any advice appreciated!

[Worth1]

I would leave the forest floor alone.
If they are only taking out the pines then that means the other trees are probably oak or something.
If you scrape off that much soil you can easily kill off the rest of the trees.
This is where their feeder roots are and many trees dont like to have the roots disturbed that much.

I have no idea what kind of soil it is as I dont know where your father in law lives.

It sounds lie it need compost as the nutrients have either been used up or washed out.
Does he plant on berms or flat?
If I were you I would have the soil tested for nutrients and PH then amend accordingly.

Worth

[RayR]

Sounds like a good plan. The bad thing about tilling is it ruins soil structure and disrupts or kills the beneficial soil life. Sometimes you need to do it if you're starting out with heavy clay soils with poor soil structure to begin with so you can work organic matter in but after that don't do it.
Add organic matter to the top of the soil and preferably don't let the soil lay fallow. Roots in the ground with cover crops or even weeds is better than barren soil.

[Stvrob]

Careful with fresh wood chips, they will bind up alot of the nitrogen as they decay. Once they decay, its eventually returned to the soil though.

I scrape woodsy soil from beneath pines all the time. Lots of good stuff under healthy woods. I wouldnt go overboard with equipment though, and spread out, dont take everything from one spot, especially if your father in law depends on his woodlot for income.

[MarcH.]

Originally Posted by Worth1

I would leave the forest floor alone.
If they are only taking out the pines then that means the other trees are probably oak or something.
If you scrape off that much soil you can easily kill off the rest of the trees.
This is where their feeder roots are and many trees dont like to have the roots disturbed that much.

I have no idea what kind of soil it is as I dont know where your father in law lives.

It sounds lie it need compost as the nutrients have either been used up or washed out.
Does he plant on berms or flat?
If I were you I would have the soil tested for nutrients and PH then amend accordingly.

Worth

Well I know one area that is all pine that is being harvested. So there wouldn't be any harm to the stumps left over.

He plants on berms mostly. He had the soil tested at the beginning and it was good I believe but I couldn't grow mint back then so....

Originally Posted by RayR

Sounds like a good plan. The bad thing about tilling is it ruins soil structure and disrupts or kills the beneficial soil life. Sometimes you need to do it if you're starting out with heavy clay soils with poor soil structure to begin with so you can work organic matter in but after that don't do it.
Add organic matter to the top of the soil and preferably don't let the soil lay fallow. Roots in the ground with cover crops or even weeds is better than barren soil.

Yeah I wanna get him away from tilling it over and over and over. He likes it weed free and bare soil. He's old school kinda stuck in his ways sort of guy.

Interested to hear more opinions.

[MarcH.]

Originally Posted by Stvrob

Careful with fresh wood chips, they will bind up alot of the nitrogen as they decay. Once they decay, its eventually returned to the soil though.

I scrape woodsy soil from beneath pines all the time. Lots of good stuff under healthy woods. I wouldnt go overboard with equipment though, and spread out, dont take everything from one spot, especially if your father in law depends on his woodlot for income.

Yeah he depends on the timber for sure...and the area will be replanted. But if he spreads it out and just skims a little bit hopefully that would be ok.

[MarcH.]

Lets say he did do it, would it be best to rake back the pine needles and leave them there or gather them as well?

[Stvrob]

You can use the fluffy stuff under the pine straw for your garden, and some of the needles for mulch. Just dont go overboard in any one area, dont leave bare soil. The seedlings are likely more valuable than you might think, and they will be depending on the organic matter left behind from the clearcut.

Once in the garden you might need lime. Best to check.

[bughunter99]

Originally Posted by MarcH.

My father in law has a fenced in garden in Louisiana. The soil was good and rich when he first had it tilled up. Since then he's removed every plant and weed at the end of each season and then tilled the soil. Now its complete mud from all the rain and its just bare soil that sat there all winter. Its been used for 3 years and this will be the 4th year, last year not being that good...but not that bad either.

Anyways, I would think he would benefit from putting some organic matter into the garden. I got him a 50 lb bag of organic fert and will work on setting him up some wood chip rows when I go down there whenever I can.

He has ton of land with hardwood and pine forests. Some of the pine is being harvested currently. Would it be a good idea to kinda scrape the top 4-6 inches of soil on the floor of the forest and mix that into the rows of the garden? Or am I just thinking crazy.

I plan to do a cover crop in the fall for him as well.

Any advice appreciated!

Scraping the soil from the forest floor is not cool, and could very possibly import pests and diseases into his space. It is terrible for the forest and the trees. If the trees are all gone and he plans to replant more pines, he needs that soil where it is. Additionally, there is a good chance you will do it and it will just wash away-causing damage with zero benefit.
I would recommend that next fall he put a cover crop on the soil and then till it in in the spring. Leaving bare soil all winter is not good for it. He is likely losing a bunch of it, and its fertility to run off. That is one reason he is getting increasingly bad results. If chemicals are being used indiscriminantly, that could be another reason. His formerly vibrant soil may be dying.
For this spring I would get a soil test to see what it needs and treat accordingly-no more. No that would chips should only be used as top mulch. If you mix it into the soil, the nitrogen needed for good growth will be sucked up by the pine mulch and leave the plants lacking.

[MarcH.]

I probably won't mention it to him. I just want his garden to do better. We'll get him thru the season and cover crop it during the fall. Any wood chips would be for mulch only of course.

[Cole_Robbie]

You need manure.

[Redbaron]

Most lumber companies burn the branches from the pines when they harvest timber. I would suggest you instead rent or buy a chipper and chip them yourself. Free resources that will help your garden immensely. Just let them compost a bit before using them as mulch.

[peppero]

Perhaps a good book such as "The Complete Book of Composting" by Rodale or some other could be found; it could change his view of things.

jon

[Worth1]

What type of soil does your Father in law have?
There are so many types in that state.

One thing I was going to mention, almost every weed we can think of when listed says.
Commonly found in disturbed soil.
A well tilled garden fits that description.

Worth