Growing 1,000+ heirlooms, what varieties?

[Ruby]

Some background:
I have recently returned to school for a degree in Agronomy and am very excited that my first project is growing 1,000+ tomatoes to be harvested and sold fresh at local farmer's market and the market on campus.

I don't post much, but I'm a long-time lurker on Tomatoville and I thought you all might be able to take a look at my list of varieties and see if I'm on the right track or just give me your thoughts about growing on a larger scale. This list is comprised mostly of recommendations from Carolyn's book, along with additional varieties I'm personally interested in.

My goals are to have a successful crop and to get a feel of which varieties will do well in the area. I need to get the seeds from commercial sources and I have a few of these already. Heat is going to be an issue for fruit setting, so I want to give myself the best chances by choosing enough heat tolerant or "easy" varieties. The tomatoes will be grown in Eastern Los Angeles County in southern California.

Strong contenders:
Druzba
Box Car Willie
Eva Purple Ball
Mule Team
Red Brandywine
Brandywine (Sudduth)
Break O' Day
German Red Strawberry
Orange Strawberry
Kellogg's Breakfast
Dixie Golden Giant
Golden Queen
Cherokee Purple
Zogola
Mortgage Lifter
Riesentraube
Opalka
Aunt Ruby's German Green
Earl's Faux

Also considering:
Green Grape
Pink Ice
Yellow Pear/Red Pear (I'm not a fan, but I think people like them)
Amana Orange
Black Prince
Amish Paste
Old German
Pink Ping Pong

Having problems finding seed are they worth seeking?
Lida Ukrainian
Reif Red Heart
Nicky Crain
Earl of Edgecombe

I'm really excited to be working on this and appreciate any help or words of wisdom!

[carolyn137]

Having problems finding seed are they worth seeking?
Lida Ukrainian
Reif Red Heart
Nicky Crain
Earl of Edgecombe

*****

Yes, I think they are all worth seeking.

All are available from Sandhill Preservation except for Nicky Crain which is not available this year. I think I may have a very few seeds left if you want to e-mail me with your address. I can also include Mortgage Lifter (Estler) which I think is far superior to the regular ML.

Amana Orange and Kellogg's Breakfast are not all that different and I consider KB to be far superior to AO.

(My goals are to have a successful crop and to get a feel of which varieties will do well in the area.)

Speaking as the former teacher that I was, LOL, those may be your goals but now being a student what are the goals for the project as defined by your advisor? I must say it seems rather unusual to ask a student to just grow out a lot of varieties to see how they do b'c that kind of info is really quite available in your area if you have contact with any of the many growers of heirlooms in that area.

Lastly, all of my friends in the LA area would have already sowed their seeds for at least their Spring crop.

Are you going to do two crops so that the indet mid and late season ones are your Spring crop and the short season and some mids are your Fall crop?

And if that's your list does that mean that you're growing 1000 plants but not 1000 varieties? If so I don't know if I have enoough Nicky Crain seeds to grow as many as you need.

And just a wee note of caution. You can't make decisions on suitability for your area after just one season of trialing varieties b'c there are just too many variables at work in terms of performance.

How are you going to grow them? I'm just curious. By sprawling, caging, staking, other?

Have fun.

[johno]

Los Angeles, huh?.. Seems like I know of a knowledgable tomato lover there. What was his name?.. Oh yeah, Zebraman! (hiding behind riot shield now )

[Lee]

I would replace Brandywine with Cuostralee because
1. I think Cuostralee tastes better and
2. Cuostralee is a lot less finicky than BW... IMHO

Also, you might add Big Beef. It's a really good/productive/
disease tolerant hybrid that would sell quite well.

Lee

[Ruby]

Carolyn:
Yes, I think they are all worth seeking...

Thanks for all the info. For some reason I hadn't checked Sandhill, I'll be in touch about the Nicky Crain seeds.


Speaking as the former teacher that I was, LOL, those may be your goals but now being a student what are the goals for the project as defined by your advisor? I must say it seems rather unusual to ask a student to just grow out a lot of varieties to see how they do b'c that kind of info is really quite available in your area if you have contact with any of the many growers of heirlooms in that area.

That's a really good question. Since I'm just starting out in the program, it really is just to give me a feel for how to grow and market a crop. They don't have a lot of experience on campus with tomatoes other than hybrid determinates from what I've gathered. Someone made an attempt at heirlooms last year and they didn't get any fruit (I suspect they planted too late). I did look at heirloomplants.com for the info on heat tolerance because I figured that would be reliable for this area. I would love to be in touch with other heirloom growers around. Hopefully, they'll stumble onto this thread.


Lastly, all of my friends in the LA area would have already sowed their seeds for at least their Spring crop.

I'm a little worried about this, especially since I've already got a few started at home. I have some seeds on hand and should have some space to start next week, so I think I'll be okay. I could be overly optimistic though. ;-)


Are you going to do two crops so that the indet mid and late season ones are your Spring crop and the short season and some mids are your Fall crop?

It's technical only for Spring/Summer, but I'm hoping to either carry some over into Fall or perhaps do another round after everything goes well. Any feeling about what varieties should be held till Fall?


And if that's your list does that mean that you're growing 1000 plants but not 1000 varieties? If so I don't know if I have enoough Nicky Crain seeds to grow as many as you need.

It's going to be somewhere around 30 varieties and 1,000 plants. I'm working on plotting everything out on paper over the weekend to figure out how many of each variety I'm shooting for. I have an acre available to use, so if I can do more, there's room.


And just a wee note of caution. You can't make decisions on suitability for your area after just one season of trialing varieties b'c there are just too many variables at work in terms of performance.

Good point. I'm repeating some varieties that were grown (unsuccessfully) last year and there are two other people doing tomato projects at the same time. Hopefully, we'll have some good communication and perhaps I can do this on a longer term basis.


How are you going to grow them? I'm just curious. By sprawling, caging, staking, other?

Staking, plastic sheet mulch, drip irrigation (there's a crew to do this, thank goodness), and some other students to help. I've already mentioned that these are probably going to get enormous! :-)

[Fusion_power]

Lets go through your varieties and rank them in terms of total production:

Druzba - medium to high production
Box Car Willie - high to very high production
Eva Purple Ball - high to very high production
Mule Team - high to very high production
Red Brandywine - high to very high production
Brandywine (Sudduth) - medium to high production, special treatment helps.
Break O' Day - not memorable, don't think it was very productive.
German Red Strawberry - low to medium production
Orange Strawberry - low to medium production
Kellogg's Breakfast - medium to high production
Dixie Golden Giant - medium production
Golden Queen - medium production, nematode susceptible
Cherokee Purple - high to very high production
Zogola - huge fruit but only medium production
Mortgage Lifter - medium production
Riesentraube - high production but specialty only because of size
Opalka - low to medium production, special uses, sells well when you have a crop.
Aunt Ruby's German Green - medium to high production, excellent flavor
Earl's Faux - medium to high production, excellent flavor

Also considering:
Green Grape - medium to high production, small size.
Pink Ice - medium to high production, cherry size.
Yellow Pear/Red Pear (I'm not a fan, but I think people like them) Some people like them, but I can't stand them.
Amana Orange - medium to high production, mediocre flavor.
Black Prince - medium production, mediocre flavor
Amish Paste - medium to high production but is a specialty item. Do you have a market?
Old German - low to medium production, mediocre flavor at best
Pink Ping Pong - medium to high production, golfball size, very high seed count.

Having problems finding seed are they worth seeking?
Lida Ukrainian - medium to high production, decent flavor
Reif Red Heart - low to medium production.
Nicky Crain - medium to high production, good to very good flavor
Earl of Edgecombe - medium to high production, good flavor but not exceptional.


Now lets talk about what is missing. You don't have a marketing plan. Where will you sell the fruit? You are missing several varieties that would sell better than the ones you have listed. Here are a few to consider:

Little Lucky is a good bicolor tomato in the tennis ball size range. Lucky Cross is a good flavored bicolor tomato in the large beefsteak class. I would grow either of these in preference to Old German.

You have 6 yellow/orange varieties but some of your selections are just also rans. I would suggest considering carefully Dixie Golden Giant, Amana Orange, and Golden Queen. These three do not add much to your lineup (Golden queen maybe excepted) because you have other better flavored and more productive varieties listed. Two I would suggest are Yoder's German Yellow for a beefsteak size yellow tomato with good flavor and good production and Galina if you want a good cherry size yellow.

You have only two black/purple when ripe varieties, Cherokee Purple and Black Prince. I would suggest you add two more with Black From Tula and Black Cherry. This would give you a good flavored large tomato and a good flavored cherry size both in the dark to very dark color group. You might also consider Paul Robeson. It is not very happy in my climate but has a pretty good record in most of California.

For heart shaped varieties, you have German Red Strawberry and Reif's Red Heart. You might consider getting Kosovo and possibly my variety "Tastiheart". These are more productive than the first two.

You are really weak on early maturing varieties. Gregori's Altai is a good flavored and productive beefsteak size tomato with 65 to 70 day maturity. Kimberly is a golf ball size tomato with good flavor and good production.

Your cherry selections would benefit from adding the rest of the available colors. Yours are:
Riesentraube
Green Grape
Pink Ice
Yellow Pear
Red Pear

Here is what I would grow:
Dr. Carolyn Pink
Galina (yellow)
Black Cherry (very dark, very good)
Besser (Red)
Green Grape
Riesentraube (unique shape and sells because of it)

I want to compliment you on your selection of red and pink varieties. I might prune out a few but overall you have some excellent varieties. I agree with Lee that Cuostralee is worth considering.

You don't have much in the paste/sauce category. If you really feel there is a market, Heidi, Martino's Roma, and Rio Grande would be worth growing.

As already mentioned above, culture is going to be a big issue. I would suggest careful consideration because this can be a big factor in your expenses and profit. For example, if you let them sprawl, your crop may be cut by diseases and pests. If you put them up on stakes, you incur the cost of stakes and baling twine.

Here are some things to think on:
1. Preparing the soil. A tractor takes about 3 hrs to prepare one acre for planting tomatoes. At $80 per hour, your cost is $240.

2. How are you going to fertilize? Commercial fertilizer requires about 600 pounds of 17-17-17 per acre. Organic fertilizer will require about 60 cubic yards of manure per acre.

3. If you set out the plants yourself, I hope you have a very strong back. It will be aching severely before you are done. You will need at least 2200 plants per acre and maybe more if you plant thicker.

4. Will you need irrigation? It is a terrible thing to put a lot of work and effort into a crop and lose it because of drought.

5. Stakes and twine will cost you about $500 per acre. Stakes are typically 30 cents each and you will need about 800 per acre. You will need about 12 rolls of hay baling twine per acre at $15 each.

6. Harvesting is very labor intensive. One person can harvest about an acre of tomatoes if they work really hard. If that person then has to take the tomatoes to the farmers market and stand in a booth selling them all day, well, you start to get the picture of a very tired tomato grower.

7. By one estimate, tomatoes can return a profit of $900 per acre after expenses. If your market is really good and if you retail your own fruit, you could easily triple that. So lets say your profit potential is $2700 per acre.


There are lots of things I left out, but maybe this will give you some things to prepare for.

Fusion

[carolyn137]

Fusion, I compliment you on all the time you took to post what you did.

Just a few comments.

Your comments about production are based on your experience and not necessarily what I have gotten myself or others.

Almost all heart shaped varieties have lower yield, but what mainly sells fruits is taste, and that's what keeps the public coming back for more.

And a note to the poster, if I don't have the 30 Nicky Crain seeds you require I certainly do have that many and more of Kosovo, also a pink heart, that Fusion mentioned.

The East LA area is very tuned into heirloom tomatoes, and I know that b/c I have friends in the area, so any public selling of fruits I think should not be a problem for an heirloom savvy area.

If I were to also list those vaarieties I think there are quite a few that I would have different thoughts about, re production, and there's no sense listing taste, since taste is perceptual and individual and based on just too many variables that can't be controlled.

I don't see any spitters in the ones listed, as far as I'm concerned, and I do agree with some of your suggestions re cherry tomatoes in particular.

[Ruby]

Fusion -
Thank you so much for the thoughtful post. I'm going to pore over your response and I'm sure I'll have more to say. The suggestion on cherries is excellent. I really think these will do well, especially with such a range.

Carolyn -
I'm not that familiar with heart shaped varieties, but from what I've looked at so far, I think they will be interesting (and tasty!). I haven't seen any in the local farmers markets, so this would be a more unique type for me to offer. Going to read up about Kosovo now...

[hoping4tomatoes]

Fusion,

I think that was super generous and super cool to add that info to your last post! That's what makes garden people so wonderful....There's always someone with more experience and it's always fun to share!

Very nice,

Marjorie

[Ruby]

Okay, first things first. Here's the list I finally settled on:

Amana Orange
Amish Paste
Aunt Ruby's German Green
Black Cherry
Black Prince
Box Car Willie
Break O' Day
Cherokee Purple
Cuostralee
Dr. Carolyn
Druzba
Earl's Faux
Eva Purple Ball
Galina
German Red Strawberry
Golden Queen
Green Grape
Gregori's Altai
Kellogg's Breakfast
Kimberly
Kosovo
Mortgage Lifter
Mule Team
Opalka
Paul Robeson
Pink Ice
Pink Ping Pong
Red Brandywine
Riesentraube
Zogola

Added some more cherry types because I think they'll do well. I may have made a mistake with the Golden Queen because I realize I may not have ordered the USDA strain. Oops. Also, I dropped the yellow pear because I couldn't in good conscience release it on the public. :wink:

Fusion:
Marketing plan.

I had originally wanted to try to sell to stores like Whole Foods and Trader Joe's, but apparently there is a whole other level to that and I was advised against it. So, these are going to be sold in the farm store on campus and at farmers market(s). Other possibilities would be restaurants, but I'm not sure if the one's in the area would go for heirlooms that aren't grown organically and the fancy restaurant/dining halls on campus.

I have a graphic design background, so in terms of marketing, I have some ideas about packaging and labelling. Another idea I'm tossing around for the farmer's markets, at least, is I want to try to get away from selling by the pound. When I'm buying stuff as a customer, I know I prefer just picking up a tray, basket, or bag that has a price on it. Also, I'd like to sell them in some way where they won't get crushed.

I added a bunch of your suggestions for more marketable varieties. Kimberly is one I was planning to grow at home, but I just bumped it up to be one of my early varieties for this project.

Another student is doing a paste project, so I'm just going to go with Opalka for now. I'm going to pass along your suggestions.

This information is REALLY helpful about the costs. As far as labor goes, I'll be all of the seed starting/transplanting. I suspect there will be students helping set out everything in the field (but I'm probably going to be doing a lot of this myself) and there is going to be a crew to do the staking and running the irrigation, etc. Harvesting is going to get interesting--I'll definitely be recruiting for this, but it's good to know that it is *possible* for one person to handle it.

Really fantastic information. Thank you again.

Carolyn:
I changed my list around. Hopefully there still aren't any spitters! I went ahead and ordered some Kosovo. If you have even a couple Nicky Crain or other interesting hearts, it would be great to give them a try.

[carolyn137]

I went ahead and ordered some Kosovo

*****

Not sure why you did Ruby after I offered to send you seeds.

Please e-mail me your address and I'll see what I have re Nicky Crain as well as some other hearts, which I know I have. I mean relatively fresh seeds b'c heavens knows you don't want to fool around at this late date with my much older seeds.

[Ruby]

(Not sure why you did Ruby after I offered to send you seeds.)

I forgot to mention the part where I smacked my forehead after ordering them! Ha. (I just e-mailed you)