Average Last Frost

Catherine+twin · May 17, 2015

In eight of the last 10 years, I planted my tomatoes out as much as a month before the last average frost date, May 15. However, in 2013 and 2014 we had frosts ON May 15. It reminds me that AVERAGE means early some years, late others.

It's a streak. And today we had snow, too. Granted, it was heavy wet sloppy snow that didn't stick around (just uphill from town, however, there was still snow in the late afternoon--too bad it didn't come in January or February, the ski area could have opened!). I have brought my plants in every night for the last week, but they might have survived all but last night. I was at the hardware store this morning and saw the plants that they DIDN'T bring in. Ooh, sad. Well, most of their Bonnie plants weren't appropriate for a short-season, cool-summer, mountain climate, anyway.

Tonight is supposed to be in the 30s again, so my plants are in the front hallway once more. The next 7 nights are supposed to be in the low 40s, which is pretty cool for mid-May. I think I'll be planting out the first weekend in June, at this rate. Then I'll put up a low tunnel with garden blanket to warm things up and help them get established. Losing a couple of weeks to a month off of my growing season makes it hard to get a harvest of a couple of my varieties. Granted, the Yellow Stuffer is a running joke between dear daughter and me, but I really need fresh seed on that one.

Maybe I should try to cross Yellow Stuffer with Amber-Colored to develop a shorter-season hollow tomato. Ooh, and Tatiana's Tomatobase shows Amber-colored as a dwarf. Cool, I can get in on the dwarf tomato thing! That is, if I can manage to cross the darned things.

Catherine

Gardeneer · May 17, 2015

There is a difference between "average" and "statistical" LFD. The latter is more mathematical, beyond just adding numbers and taking average.
Then also there are different kinds of LFD . The most common is 90/10. which means after the given date there is still a 10% probability that frost can happen. There are also 95/5, 98/2.
With today's weather forecasting science , you can narrow those numbers down. For example:
My 90/10 LFD is April 5th. Around 3rd I check several 10 days forecast.
POSSIBILITIES:
1- They all indicate that up until April 13th there won't be a frost.
2- The all indicate that there will be a frost on later than April 5th.

In either case I have improved/narrowed down my LFD to about 99/1 accuracy. That is good I am willing to gamble on that without any hesitation.

Gardeneer

Catherine+twin · May 17, 2015

I think you are safer all ways around with some ocean temperature tempering, as opposed to me, on a mountain side in the southern Rockies, exposed to jet stream winds that are all wrong for this time of year.

I watched the forecasts and didn't plant early this year. Bummer, at least but my plants are still okay.

RJGlew · May 18, 2015

Zone 3a - our ALFD is May 23rd, and although we have had a very mild winter, it does not seem to have changed our plant out dates much - looks like a frost tonight.

bower · May 18, 2015

RJGlew, everybody notices the frost on Victoria day weekend, because half the population are out in tents.

It's always nasty here on the 24th, no matter how nice before that.

Catherine+twin, you should do that cross. It would be cool to see how the genetics of hollowness plays out. There are some excellent videos on youtube that show how to emasculate the flowers to make a cross - that's the hardest part. Other than waiting for them to ripen.

Catherine+twin · May 18, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by bower

Catherine+twin, you should do that cross. It would be cool to see how the genetics of hollowness plays out. There are some excellent videos on youtube that show how to emasculate the flowers to make a cross - that's the hardest part. Other than waiting for them to ripen.

I'll definitely try it. Going by what I've read in the Dwarfs section, Amber-Colored should be the female parent, and if the F1 seedlings are non-dwarf indeterminate the cross was a success. Then in the F2 generation we'll be watching for the interesting stuff.

Good thing I have a big yard.

Catherine

**carolyn137** · May 18, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catherine+twin

In eight of the last 10 years, I planted my tomatoes out as much as a month before the last average frost date, May 15. However, in 2013 and 2014 we had frosts ON May 15. It reminds me that AVERAGE means early some years, late others.

It's a streak. And today we had snow, too. Granted, it was heavy wet sloppy snow that didn't stick around (just uphill from town, however, there was still snow in the late afternoon--too bad it didn't come in January or February, the ski area could have opened!). I have brought my plants in every night for the last week, but they might have survived all but last night. I was at the hardware store this morning and saw the plants that they DIDN'T bring in. Ooh, sad. Well, most of their Bonnie plants weren't appropriate for a short-season, cool-summer, mountain climate, anyway.

Tonight is supposed to be in the 30s again, so my plants are in the front hallway once more. The next 7 nights are supposed to be in the low 40s, which is pretty cool for mid-May. I think I'll be planting out the first weekend in June, at this rate. Then I'll put up a low tunnel with garden blanket to warm things up and help them get established. Losing a couple of weeks to a month off of my growing season makes it hard to get a harvest of a couple of my varieties. Granted, the Yellow Stuffer is a running joke between dear daughter and me, but I really need fresh seed on that one.

Maybe I should try to cross Yellow Stuffer with Amber-Colored to develop a shorter-season hollow tomato. Ooh, and Tatiana's Tomatobase shows Amber-colored as a dwarf. Cool, I can get in on the dwarf tomato thing! That is, if I can manage to cross the darned things.

Catherine

Tania for amber colored says det first, then dwarf, and it isn't a true dwarf at all b'c the leaves are not rugose and it doesn't have a central thick stem.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Amber_Colored

Yes, I've grown it, Tania says an acid bite and I'll go beyond that and say it had the same taste as ones I call spitters, just my opinion, and I grew it twice with the same results,

I've also grown seveal different stuffer varieties and all that I've grown have had almost indigestible thick walls, so if I want to stuff a tomato with this or that I'd use a non-stuffer and just scoop out the insides.

Your choice, of course, in trying to develop an early stuffer.

Carolyn

Catherine+twin · May 19, 2015

Different climates, different tastes and all that. I've been growing both of these tomatoes for years and we enjoy them both.

Amber-Colored produces a nice salad tomato for us, and as I'm no fan of overly-sweet fruit, it tastes just fine to me.

As for the Yellow-Stuffer, as I said, it is a running joke between DD and me because it's a long-season tomato in a short-season garden. But again, it works for us (for the one meal we harvest every year). I find regular tomatoes, carved out for a salad, are nearly as bland as the YS, but soggy. It's just the container, after all. I certainly don't eat stuffed bell peppers for the pepper (no flavor, icky texture, who decided this was a good idea???). Yellow-Stuffer with Santa Barbara chicken salad in it is MUCH better than green bell peppers with Spanish rice in it.

It's okay, though. I won't offer my stuffers to any real tomato people. I know stuffers are generally considered strange, useless mutants.

Catherine

May 17, 2015	#1
Catherine+twin Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Northern New Mexico Posts: 34	Average Last Frost In eight of the last 10 years, I planted my tomatoes out as much as a month before the last average frost date, May 15. However, in 2013 and 2014 we had frosts ON May 15. It reminds me that AVERAGE means early some years, late others. It's a streak. And today we had snow, too. Granted, it was heavy wet sloppy snow that didn't stick around (just uphill from town, however, there was still snow in the late afternoon--too bad it didn't come in January or February, the ski area could have opened!). I have brought my plants in every night for the last week, but they might have survived all but last night. I was at the hardware store this morning and saw the plants that they DIDN'T bring in. Ooh, sad. Well, most of their Bonnie plants weren't appropriate for a short-season, cool-summer, mountain climate, anyway. Tonight is supposed to be in the 30s again, so my plants are in the front hallway once more. The next 7 nights are supposed to be in the low 40s, which is pretty cool for mid-May. I think I'll be planting out the first weekend in June, at this rate. Then I'll put up a low tunnel with garden blanket to warm things up and help them get established. Losing a couple of weeks to a month off of my growing season makes it hard to get a harvest of a couple of my varieties. Granted, the Yellow Stuffer is a running joke between dear daughter and me, but I really need fresh seed on that one. Maybe I should try to cross Yellow Stuffer with Amber-Colored to develop a shorter-season hollow tomato. Ooh, and Tatiana's Tomatobase shows Amber-colored as a dwarf. Cool, I can get in on the dwarf tomato thing! That is, if I can manage to cross the darned things. Catherine

May 17, 2015	#2
Gardeneer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7 Posts: 4,919	There is a difference between "average" and "statistical" LFD. The latter is more mathematical, beyond just adding numbers and taking average. Then also there are different kinds of LFD . The most common is 90/10. which means after the given date there is still a 10% probability that frost can happen. There are also 95/5, 98/2. With today's weather forecasting science , you can narrow those numbers down. For example: My 90/10 LFD is April 5th. Around 3rd I check several 10 days forecast. POSSIBILITIES: 1- They all indicate that up until April 13th there won't be a frost. 2- The all indicate that there will be a frost on later than April 5th. In either case I have improved/narrowed down my LFD to about 99/1 accuracy. That is good I am willing to gamble on that without any hesitation. Gardeneer

May 18, 2015	#5
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,794	RJGlew, everybody notices the frost on Victoria day weekend, because half the population are out in tents. It's always nasty here on the 24th, no matter how nice before that. Catherine+twin, you should do that cross. It would be cool to see how the genetics of hollowness plays out. There are some excellent videos on youtube that show how to emasculate the flowers to make a cross - that's the hardest part. Other than waiting for them to ripen.

May 19, 2015	#8
Catherine+twin Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Northern New Mexico Posts: 34	Different climates, different tastes and all that. I've been growing both of these tomatoes for years and we enjoy them both. Amber-Colored produces a nice salad tomato for us, and as I'm no fan of overly-sweet fruit, it tastes just fine to me. As for the Yellow-Stuffer, as I said, it is a running joke between DD and me because it's a long-season tomato in a short-season garden. But again, it works for us (for the one meal we harvest every year). I find regular tomatoes, carved out for a salad, are nearly as bland as the YS, but soggy. It's just the container, after all. I certainly don't eat stuffed bell peppers for the pepper (no flavor, icky texture, who decided this was a good idea???). Yellow-Stuffer with Santa Barbara chicken salad in it is MUCH better than green bell peppers with Spanish rice in it. It's okay, though. I won't offer my stuffers to any real tomato people. I know stuffers are generally considered strange, useless mutants. Catherine