Starting with Tomato Tone

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by jillian

I have always had great results with Espoma tomato tone, which became unavailable here so I used their garden tone with also great results. I mix some into the soil that I am potting up with then scratch in every few weeks. I do not want to hijack thread but RayR, could you answer a question for me? I have mixed up a 20 cu. ft amount of potting mix. At first the mix was 6.0 so I added some lime. Now it is 7.0. Is this okay? I read that most vegetables like an acidic soil. ***** I am tired. That pile of dirt is getting the best of me.

Also this is the first "batch". I grow mostly in containers so I need to be certain my ph is on target.

I don't know about the mix, but I would think 6 pH to maybe even 6.5 pH would be better too, though I could be wrong. I don't worry about pH in my containers. I have a meter, but never use it. I have for me, a good soil I like, use the MG, Epsom Salt, TT and if needed Vitagro and I am doing good. If I think I am having a problem, then I will run here and beg for help from folks to get my plants back on track. So much easier and they always right on for help. I trust their experience and opinions more than a meter.

I tried using a meter years ago when I did my own mixing of soil and found that no matter how much I mixed and I even did 1 cu. ft. batches at a time, that each container was slightly different, so after that I never used one again.

[RayR]

Originally Posted by jillian

I have always had great results with Espoma tomato tone, which became unavailable here so I used their garden tone with also great results. I mix some into the soil that I am potting up with then scratch in every few weeks. I do not want to hijack thread but RayR, could you answer a question for me? I have mixed up a 20 cu. ft amount of potting mix. At first the mix was 6.0 so I added some lime. Now it is 7.0. Is this okay? I read that most vegetables like an acidic soil. ***** I am tired. That pile of dirt is getting the best of me.

Also this is the first "batch". I grow mostly in containers so I need to be certain my ph is on target.

Ya, making your own mix can be tricky, the more different inputs you add to the mix the more tricky it gets to target PH. What components make up your mix?
You'll be OK at 7.0 if it stays buffered at that and doesn't creep up significantly. I would agree though with Worth I would have left it at 6.0, even if you were wanting 6.5. I often see a tendency for the PH of a mix to drift upwards a bit over time more so than down, a week or so after it has been moist and with roots in the soil. A lot of chemical reactions can occur after the mix has been wet for awhile than when you did your initial PH test. The more different inputs you add too a mix the more complicated the chemistry gets that effects PH.
I was recently playing around with one mix that initially tested at 6.4, but a week later after being moist with a plant in it, it tested at 6.7 and it stayed buffered at that PH from then on. That was fine with me. No lime was used too.

[jillian]

[QUOTE=RayR;540472]Ya, making your own mix can be tricky, the more different inputs you add to the mix the more tricky it gets to target PH. What components make up your mix?
You'll be OK at 7.0 if it stays buffered at that and doesn't creep up significantly. I would agree though with Worth I would have left it at 6.0, even if you were wanting 6.5. I often see a tendency for the PH of a mix to drift upwards a bit over time more so than down, a week or so after it has been moist and with roots in the soil. A lot of chemical reactions can occur after the mix has been wet for awhile than when you did your initial PH test. The more different inputs you add too a mix the more complicated the chemistry gets that effects PH.
I was recently playing around with one mix that initially tested at 6.4, but a week later after being moist with a plant in it, it tested at 6.7 and it stayed buffered at that PH from then on. That was fine with me. No lime was used too.[/QUOTE

Thanks Ray, I am feeling a bit better, after letting sit for a few hours I checked it again and it was 6.5. I will check again tomorrow and daily for the next week or so. I just want to be certain because this is only the first batch of many more this season. Keeping fingers crossed, toes too!

[BajaMitch]

Great info, RayR, especially regarding the nature of calcium in bone meal. Tomato Tone package says that it contains their proprietary blend of microbes, Bio-tone. I suppose that those microbes would help perform the necessary process to convert the calcium phosphate to usable calcium, but how long that would take to be sufficient for a given season is unknown to me. Not much detail on Espoma's website, either.

To have 1% Mg (mostly from Potassium Magnesium Sulfate), Tomato Tone would have to have 90 grams of pure Potassium Magnesium Sulfate for every kilogram of Tomato Tone. I didn't see any reference on the Tomato Tone package that indicated it contained Potassium Magnesium Sulfate, but the package did indicate that it had Sulfate of Potash.

The ratios of Ca:Mg:S are that you mentioned are pretty close to my "recipe' for nutrients. My ratio of "elemental" Ca: P:Mg:S is 7:4:1:4.

I do Self Watering Containers mostly and my preferred potting mix recipe is compost:potting mix:peat:perlite in the following volumetric ratio .5:1.5:2:1 and potting mix:peat:perlite at 2:2:1. Hopefully there will be an assist to the solubilizing of the calcium by the recipe that has compost as the latter recipe of 2:2:1 doesn't have much in the way of microbes. Didn't have any problems at all with BER last year.

[RayR]

Originally Posted by BajaMitch

Great info, RayR, especially regarding the nature of calcium in bone meal. Tomato Tone package says that it contains their proprietary blend of microbes, Bio-tone. I suppose that those microbes would help perform the necessary process to convert the calcium phosphate to usable calcium, but how long that would take to be sufficient for a given season is unknown to me. Not much detail on Espoma's website, either.

To have 1% Mg (mostly from Potassium Magnesium Sulfate), Tomato Tone would have to have 90 grams of pure Potassium Magnesium Sulfate for every kilogram of Tomato Tone. I didn't see any reference on the Tomato Tone package that indicated it contained Potassium Magnesium Sulfate, but the package did indicate that it had Sulfate of Potash.

The ratios of Ca:Mg:S are that you mentioned are pretty close to my "recipe' for nutrients. My ratio of "elemental" Ca: P:Mg:S is 7:4:1:4.

I do Self Watering Containers mostly and my preferred potting mix recipe is compost:potting mix:peat:perlite in the following volumetric ratio .5:1.5:2:1 and potting mix:peat:perlite at 2:2:1. Hopefully there will be an assist to the solubilizing of the calcium by the recipe that has compost as the latter recipe of 2:2:1 doesn't have much in the way of microbes. Didn't have any problems at all with BER last year.

Yes, without bacteria which are a critical part of the Soil Food Web, no organic matter or insoluble minerals would ever be cycled into available nutrients to the plant. That's the beauty of organic practices, you don't have to worry about how long it takes for nutrients to be made available to the plant or giving a plant what it needs when it needs it. It's the complex work of so many of God's little creatures and their often times symbiotic relationship with the plant that does it for you. The human gardener just has to create the environment where all can survive and do their thing.

That's interesting, I have a bag of TT here that I bought 2 years ago and it says on the label ingredients it has Sulfate pf Potash Magnesia which is another name for Potassium Magnesium Sulfate. Looking at the current data sheet online it doesn't list it, but it lists Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) as an ingredient which my old label doesn't have. So I see where you're coming from. Probably should e-mail Espoma and find out why the labeling change on Tomato-Tone..
I have a fresh bag of Plant-Tone I bought last fall and it lists Sulfate pf Potash Magnesia as an ingredient and 1% Mg in the analysis as does the current data sheet

[Ed of Somis]

Just my opinion...but I do think some folks are shooting themselves in the foot by making tomato gardening a complicated science project. Things can get sideways if you do not know what you are doing. However, I will say that it becomes a challenge (and fun) to provide your plants with great conditions...and do it yourself. I do not believe many companies provide the best product they can...because of a little thing called profitability. I get this. But, there are some pretty good quality potting mixes and fertilizers (for example)out there.

[roper2008]

I use to buy tomato tone, but now I just throw garden tone everywhere in my raised bed.

[BajaMitch]

RayR, I think part of the TT discrepancy is that Espoma has indeed changed the NPKCaMgS formula for Tomato Tone over the last 10 years at least once and I think the last change was relatively recent.

I wanted to ask you a question about a Self Watering Container grow media limited to Kellogg Patio Plus Premium Outdoor Potting Mix (organic), sphagnum peat and perlite and store bought ferts (2:2:1) - no compost or kelp meal or liquid fish or bat guano or worm castings, just dry ferts like Tomato Tone, Vigaro 17-17-17, Miracle Gro 15-30-15, bone meal (EB Stone), calcitic lime, potassium sulfate, sul-po-mag, amino sulfate, Epsom salt, and Acidifier (sulphur and fillers). Most of these dry ferts are pretty sterile.

My question is, without any natural organic matter like soil or composts or manures or worm castings or bat guano and the like, will there be enough (or any) microbial and fungal activity and enough time to adequately and sufficiently process organic forms of the six macronutrients into the inorganic forms required for plant uptake, given that all the ferts and mix components are assembled together at the time of planting tomato plant seedlings at the beginning of the growing season?

Your previous post making the point that the bone meal calcium needed to be processed by microbes in order to be transformed to the cation form of calcium that the plant could actually uptake tipped me off to the prominent factor and necessity of microbial action that may be required for calcium and certain others of the six macronutrients. Growing with self watering containers that need the "right mix" that can provide adequate and sufficient wicking of irrigation water usually precludes use of composts or manures as those ingredients do not wick water very well.

I think the two big challenges to growing in self watering containers are:
1) Achieving the physical properties necessary to support wicking, aeration and adequate and sufficient cation exchange capacity while providing nutrients that the plant can uptake without much if any microbial action …that is, unless there ARE ferts and a self watering mix recipe that can provide the microbial action needed.
2) The other challenge is do it cost effectively. I am still going under the (admittedly unproven) premise that there is a way to do all this cheaply. I am not willing to pay for expensive ferts nor expensive Pro-mix or the like.

There is a fert, Kellogg Organic Plus Tomato Vegetable and Herb Fertilizer, that appears to have a ton of microbes and some micorrhizae (more than certain other ferts that claim to have such ingredients). Looks interesting.

This coming season I am going to test 12 to 14 buckets that test for different mix recipes, cultivar difference, fert strip versus mixed-in ferts versus periodic feeding, air root pruning versus no air root pruning, and two different size containers. The following year, 2017, I will test different nutrient and fertilizer combinations and ratios.

[RayR]

Originally Posted by BajaMitch

RayR, I think part of the TT discrepancy is that Espoma has indeed changed the NPKCaMgS formula for Tomato Tone over the last 10 years at least once and I think the last change was relatively recent.

I wanted to ask you a question about a Self Watering Container grow media limited to Kellogg Patio Plus Premium Outdoor Potting Mix (organic), sphagnum peat and perlite and store bought ferts (2:2:1) - no compost or kelp meal or liquid fish or bat guano or worm castings, just dry ferts like Tomato Tone, Vigaro 17-17-17, Miracle Gro 15-30-15, bone meal (EB Stone), calcitic lime, potassium sulfate, sul-po-mag, amino sulfate, Epsom salt, and Acidifier (sulphur and fillers). Most of these dry ferts are pretty sterile.

My question is, without any natural organic matter like soil or composts or manures or worm castings or bat guano and the like, will there be enough (or any) microbial and fungal activity and enough time to adequately and sufficiently process organic forms of the six macronutrients into the inorganic forms required for plant uptake, given that all the ferts and mix components are assembled together at the time of planting tomato plant seedlings at the beginning of the growing season?

Your previous post making the point that the bone meal calcium needed to be processed by microbes in order to be transformed to the cation form of calcium that the plant could actually uptake tipped me off to the prominent factor and necessity of microbial action that may be required for calcium and certain others of the six macronutrients. Growing with self watering containers that need the "right mix" that can provide adequate and sufficient wicking of irrigation water usually precludes use of composts or manures as those ingredients do not wick water very well.

I think the two big challenges to growing in self watering containers are:
1) Achieving the physical properties necessary to support wicking, aeration and adequate and sufficient cation exchange capacity while providing nutrients that the plant can uptake without much if any microbial action …that is, unless there ARE ferts and a self watering mix recipe that can provide the microbial action needed.
2) The other challenge is do it cost effectively. I am still going under the (admittedly unproven) premise that there is a way to do all this cheaply. I am not willing to pay for expensive ferts nor expensive Pro-mix or the like.

There is a fert, Kellogg Organic Plus Tomato Vegetable and Herb Fertilizer, that appears to have a ton of microbes and some micorrhizae (more than certain other ferts that claim to have such ingredients). Looks interesting.

This coming season I am going to test 12 to 14 buckets that test for different mix recipes, cultivar difference, fert strip versus mixed-in ferts versus periodic feeding, air root pruning versus no air root pruning, and two different size containers. The following year, 2017, I will test different nutrient and fertilizer combinations and ratios.

I don't have much experience with SWC's. I do grasp the issues with using organics that contain solids suspended in the water in a reservoir as far as wicking up into the container mix. I've done bottom feeding with liquid organic ferts with seed starting and that works OK, but with the media being shallow they don't have to wick up very far.
The other concern I would have with organics in a reservoir is they are biologically active, with a stagnant reservoir that can turn anaerobic quickly as the bacteria consume oxygen dissolved in the water.
For me, dry organic ferts like Tomato-Tone belong mixed into the soil where the insoluble components will be digested by the microbes near the roots, liquid organic ferts get watered in from the top right into the root zone. If I were to do an SWC with a combination of organics and synthetics I would use the reservoir for the soluble salts + any highly soluble organic additions like fulvic acids, amino acids, organic chelates and such. That's just my thoughts on how I would approach it.
Since microbial inoculants have become very affordable over the years, they are a welcome addition to organic fertilizers from Espoma, Kellogg and others. The soil is the plants gut, like your own gut the whole system of nutrition and protection from pathogens would fall apart without microbial partners.

[elight]

Originally Posted by Ed of Somis

Just my opinion...but I do think some folks are shooting themselves in the foot by making tomato gardening a complicated science project. Things can get sideways if you do not know what you are doing. However, I will say that it becomes a challenge (and fun) to provide your plants with great conditions...and do it yourself. I do not believe many companies provide the best product they can...because of a little thing called profitability. I get this. But, there are some pretty good quality potting mixes and fertilizers (for example)out there.

I agree. I have gone crazy with a million different fertilizers, sprays, and loads of other stuff. In the end, I've found some stuff that I think works for me and I try to use it as consistently as possible. Some might say it's still overkill. But some products are undoubtedly better than others. You have to try and judge for yourself. Just try one at a time so you know what is and is not working. Unfortunately, it is a process and you may only get one shot each year.

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[hovbuild]

I have been using a homemade version of an earthtrainer for 3 years. I use the replace the one third the media every year and have started using the 3:2:1 mixture last year and then this one. I have always limed and add 2 cups 5-10-10 ( 19 gal containers) with great success. I have been thinking of adding some mycogrow, biota and actinovate and dipping the seedlings in it but the post I have read was a dated years ago and was wondering if there is a cheaper or better way to a pre dipping before planting solution.
Bill