Heirloom VS F1 Hybrids - Page 3

StrongPlant · July 20, 2016

It depends on a lot of things...what I've learned so far is that F1 hybrids really do put out more growth and yield.My F1 cross hit the top of the greenhouse before any of the other OP varieties,and yielded lots of cherry tasty fruits.On top of that it is more disease-resistant than both of it's parents.This is however just an amateur cross,and it could be much better.The key to achieveing vigorous hybrids is:
1.Having plants with good genetic material.Obviously if you cross 2 crack-prone varieties chances are the F1 will be crack-prone...
2.Parents should be as genetically different as possible.This is perhaps even more important than the above one.If you cross 2 red-fruited,regular leafed,beefstake tomatoes,you're not gonna see much change.But if you cross,for example,a yellow-fruited,beefstake,potato-leaved variety with a red,regular leaf,cherry then the heterosis magic kicks in.
This is for example a common hybrid grown here,and it's really a monster:

The taste is debatable however,but that's probably because they mostly pick it while it's still green.Also it's not true that hybrids taste bad,it all depends of who are the parent plants.If you select for yield but neglect the taste,obviously the hybrid will taste like water.In my opinion anything that is inbred(homozygous) can never be as healthy and vigorous as outbred(heterozygous).Heterozygous organisms are also favored in nature,and are more adaptable.

Also,I encourage anyone to make their own F1's and maintain their own pure lines,so you don't have to buy the seeds from companies,but can still have vigorous,healthy tomatoes.It's easy,just get 2 OP varieties that have traits that you want and make sure they are genetically as distant as possible.Inbreed the 2 lines each year and save seeds only from progeny that shows desirable traits.

zipcode · July 21, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

I believe in so-called hybrid vigor, there also is OP vigor

A hybrid cherry can have 12, 15 and even more fruits on a truss - and an OP cherry that is growing at my mom's place, has up to 20 fruits ..

I don't think you made a right example. Cherry/grape is where hybrids beat OPs badly in production. Your situation is just a very localized example, completely opposite the larger picture. I have a F2 grape seeds from store tomato, in 10-15 gram range (so not the very small range). First truss: 16 fruits, second 105, third 85, then it kinda goes down but also because the plant got burned by too much heat, to just 40-60 per truss (currently at truss 8).

Also tomatoberry, a middle productive grape tomato (Sunstream beats it with about 50% more in trials), in the larger size (20-25 grams) has great truss vigor, it does mono trusses when conditions are poor which are about 32-36 fruits (the truss can get to 60-70cm long), but from like third truss it splits, and can make 50-70 as well. (by the way, you can find sunstream in stores, from NL, from various vendors (I saw them often in Real), just grab some f2 seeds there, they look kinda like a blocky tomatoberry, very dark red, and matte skin, unlike the shiny tomatoberry)

The picture is the first truss of tomatoberry, with now 33 tomatoes, and it's by far the smallest truss (tough to make pictures in upper region due to leaves and everything overlapping).

NarnianGarden · July 21, 2016

There is hybrid vigor AND OP vigor

Lovely picture. Technically speaking, isn't that already an OP since it's the F2 generation? no longer F1.

Goldkrone (an OP) for example is known to have long trusses, - I grew it two years ago, and will do so again, hopefully, next year. I saw no difference between it and SunGold F1 in vigor and productivity.
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Goldkrone

There are several OP and hybrid scherries I hope to grow next year, side by side, similar conditions, same soil, same fertilizers, same manure... Still, it's not the longest truss I am looking for, but good taste.

Perhaps it's with large beefsteaks where hybrids show their true colors as producers, I'm going to see next year what Big Beef is like.

July 20, 2016	#31
StrongPlant Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Europe/Serbia-Belgrade Posts: 151	It depends on a lot of things...what I've learned so far is that F1 hybrids really do put out more growth and yield.My F1 cross hit the top of the greenhouse before any of the other OP varieties,and yielded lots of cherry tasty fruits.On top of that it is more disease-resistant than both of it's parents.This is however just an amateur cross,and it could be much better.The key to achieveing vigorous hybrids is: 1.Having plants with good genetic material.Obviously if you cross 2 crack-prone varieties chances are the F1 will be crack-prone... 2.Parents should be as genetically different as possible.This is perhaps even more important than the above one.If you cross 2 red-fruited,regular leafed,beefstake tomatoes,you're not gonna see much change.But if you cross,for example,a yellow-fruited,beefstake,potato-leaved variety with a red,regular leaf,cherry then the heterosis magic kicks in. This is for example a common hybrid grown here,and it's really a monster: The taste is debatable however,but that's probably because they mostly pick it while it's still green.Also it's not true that hybrids taste bad,it all depends of who are the parent plants.If you select for yield but neglect the taste,obviously the hybrid will taste like water.In my opinion anything that is inbred(homozygous) can never be as healthy and vigorous as outbred(heterozygous).Heterozygous organisms are also favored in nature,and are more adaptable. Also,I encourage anyone to make their own F1's and maintain their own pure lines,so you don't have to buy the seeds from companies,but can still have vigorous,healthy tomatoes.It's easy,just get 2 OP varieties that have traits that you want and make sure they are genetically as distant as possible.Inbreed the 2 lines each year and save seeds only from progeny that shows desirable traits. Last edited by StrongPlant; July 20, 2016 at 06:49 PM.

July 21, 2016	#33
NarnianGarden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Finland, EU Posts: 2,550	There is hybrid vigor AND OP vigor Lovely picture. Technically speaking, isn't that already an OP since it's the F2 generation? no longer F1. Goldkrone (an OP) for example is known to have long trusses, - I grew it two years ago, and will do so again, hopefully, next year. I saw no difference between it and SunGold F1 in vigor and productivity. http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Goldkrone There are several OP and hybrid scherries I hope to grow next year, side by side, similar conditions, same soil, same fertilizers, same manure... Still, it's not the longest truss I am looking for, but good taste. Perhaps it's with large beefsteaks where hybrids show their true colors as producers, I'm going to see next year what Big Beef is like. Last edited by NarnianGarden; July 21, 2016 at 08:02 AM.