Tomato Nightmare!!!!!!!!!!

[Shapshftr]

This is one of the hazards of greenhouse production. Plants that grow naturally outdoors have to suffer the elements. In many ways, that makes them tougher. Plants that are grown indoors and tied to stakes and pampered their whole life don't get the wind and rain beating on them. Unfortunately, that makes for weak stems. This is why most people brush the tops of their seedlings while growing them indoors, or use a fan to create a gentle breeze. The plants stems will stay weak and buckle under the weight of the tomatoes if they don't get movement.

"Strengthen a growing tomato plant to prepare it for the home garden
When you strengthen a growing tomato plant before setting outside in the garden, you have a much greater chance for healthy results.

Studies at Cornell University, the University of Georgia, and the University of Torino (Italy) show what tomato growers have known for years: motion helps tomatoes grow stronger, thicker stems. The studies used mechanical brushing to test and measure results.

Motion helps promote cell division and raised chlorophyll levels. Brushing plants helps them grow stronger, stockier (though shorter), and more able to withstand transplanting into the garden.

You can help strengthen a growing tomato plant by making it move! There are two ways you can give your tomatoes a workout: brush them and blow air on them.

Brushing tomato plants
Begin brushing seedlings when they are 2-3 inches high. Pass your hand lightly over the seedlings several times a day.

When seedlings are 4 inches tall, push them a little harder. Grasp stems and bend them back and forth, being careful not to disturb their roots
Blowing on tomato plants

Get your tomatoes to move in the breeze. Aim a slow-blowing fan towards your seedlings 2 or 3 times a day, starting with 5 minutes at a time.
Gradually increase breezes to 30 minutes a session."

Physical Impedance is another method of getting stronger stems. Here's some interesting information on that. If I were you, I would try utilizing these methods if you attempt to grow indoors again.

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/...9/883.full.pdf

Also, improper fertilizing causes weak stems.

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/fertili...ems-45194.html

My big bushy plants grown outdoors develop very thick dense stems. The base of the stems get up to an inch and a half in diameter. In the fall I have to use a tree limb pruner to cut them down, because I can't even pull them out of the ground.

[xellos99]

Originally Posted by Shapshftr

This is one of the hazards of greenhouse production. Plants that grow naturally outdoors have to suffer the elements. In many ways, that makes them tougher. Plants that are grown indoors and tied to stakes and pampered their whole life don't get the wind and rain beating on them. Unfortunately, that makes for weak stems. This is why most people brush the tops of their seedlings while growing them indoors, or use a fan to create a gentle breeze. The plants stems will stay weak and buckle under the weight of the tomatoes if they don't get movement.

"Strengthen a growing tomato plant to prepare it for the home garden
When you strengthen a growing tomato plant before setting outside in the garden, you have a much greater chance for healthy results.

Studies at Cornell University, the University of Georgia, and the University of Torino (Italy) show what tomato growers have known for years: motion helps tomatoes grow stronger, thicker stems. The studies used mechanical brushing to test and measure results.

Motion helps promote cell division and raised chlorophyll levels. Brushing plants helps them grow stronger, stockier (though shorter), and more able to withstand transplanting into the garden.

You can help strengthen a growing tomato plant by making it move! There are two ways you can give your tomatoes a workout: brush them and blow air on them.

Brushing tomato plants
Begin brushing seedlings when they are 2-3 inches high. Pass your hand lightly over the seedlings several times a day.

When seedlings are 4 inches tall, push them a little harder. Grasp stems and bend them back and forth, being careful not to disturb their roots
Blowing on tomato plants

Get your tomatoes to move in the breeze. Aim a slow-blowing fan towards your seedlings 2 or 3 times a day, starting with 5 minutes at a time.
Gradually increase breezes to 30 minutes a session."

Physical Impedance is another method of getting stronger stems. Here's some interesting information on that. If I were you, I would try utilizing these methods if you attempt to grow indoors again.

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/...9/883.full.pdf

Also, improper fertilizing causes weak stems.

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/fertili...ems-45194.html

My big bushy plants grown outdoors develop very thick dense stems. The base of the stems get up to an inch and a half in diameter. In the fall I have to use a tree limb pruner to cut them down, because I can't even pull them out of the ground.

Thanks for you post. I have worked out a plan for next year now but will still look into the methods you mention.
I will purpose build a very strong support system made for the job next time. I overestimated the ability of the trusses to support themselves. This variety was grown commercially in greenhouses long before I was born and I assumed they did not have to support the thousands of trusses they must have had individually.

[Hellmanns]

Originally Posted by Shapshftr

This is one of the hazards of greenhouse production. Plants that grow naturally outdoors have to suffer the elements. In many ways, that makes them tougher. Plants that are grown indoors and tied to stakes and pampered their whole life don't get the wind and rain beating on them. Unfortunately, that makes for weak stems. This is why most people brush the tops of their seedlings while growing them indoors, or use a fan to create a gentle breeze. The plants stems will stay weak and buckle under the weight of the tomatoes if they don't get movement.

"Strengthen a growing tomato plant to prepare it for the home garden
When you strengthen a growing tomato plant before setting outside in the garden, you have a much greater chance for healthy results.

Studies at Cornell University, the University of Georgia, and the University of Torino (Italy) show what tomato growers have known for years: motion helps tomatoes grow stronger, thicker stems. The studies used mechanical brushing to test and measure results.

Motion helps promote cell division and raised chlorophyll levels. Brushing plants helps them grow stronger, stockier (though shorter), and more able to withstand transplanting into the garden.

You can help strengthen a growing tomato plant by making it move! There are two ways you can give your tomatoes a workout: brush them and blow air on them.

Brushing tomato plants
Begin brushing seedlings when they are 2-3 inches high. Pass your hand lightly over the seedlings several times a day.

When seedlings are 4 inches tall, push them a little harder. Grasp stems and bend them back and forth, being careful not to disturb their roots
Blowing on tomato plants

Get your tomatoes to move in the breeze. Aim a slow-blowing fan towards your seedlings 2 or 3 times a day, starting with 5 minutes at a time.
Gradually increase breezes to 30 minutes a session."

Physical Impedance is another method of getting stronger stems. Here's some interesting information on that. If I were you, I would try utilizing these methods if you attempt to grow indoors again.

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/...9/883.full.pdf

Also, improper fertilizing causes weak stems.

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/fertili...ems-45194.html

My big bushy plants grown outdoors develop very thick dense stems. The base of the stems get up to an inch and a half in diameter. In the fall I have to use a tree limb pruner to cut them down, because I can't even pull them out of the ground.

This link shows phosphate, and potassium are responsible for strong stems.
http://www.sunset.com/m/garden/garde...se-fertilizers

Another type is meant to stimulate root growth, stem vigor, and flower and fruit production. Fertilizers of this sort contain little nitrogen and higher levels of phosphorus and potassium; the N-P-K ratio may be 3-20-20, for example. These products are applied at different times and in different ways, depending on what you want to achieve. When you prepare a new planting area, for instance, you'll work a dry granular fertilizer of this sort deeply into the soil, putting the phosphorus and potassium where roots can absorb them. The nutrients help strengthen the new plants' developing stems and encourage the growth of a dense network of roots.

[Ed of Somis]

For people that have not grown tomatoes seriously....plant support is the most over-looked item from what I can tell. When trying to play "catch-up" with support systems...you quickly learn to simply plan ahead next time. Most people have a tendency to under-shoot their support systems. It is a major issue. I made my mistakes with support in the past. I think most of us have.

[b54red]

Next year put a horizintal pole or support at the top of your greenhouse that runs all the way from one side to the other and put in drop lines of square bale polypropylene twine ( it is the slightly heavier baling twine). Buy some tomato clips to attache the main stem to the line and buy some J hooks that can be clipped to the line and hooked to the truss. This will work much better with a single stem and you can grow trusses all the way to the top with good support.

Or get some foam wire and tie them with that. It can be very good at supporting long trusses like you have.

Or get some two inch surveyors tape and tie the trusses up with that. It is probably the cheapest route to go right now and the easiest to use. I have been using it this summer with great success on overweight trusses. Just tie it around the main stem and over a good strong joint and tie the truss up. It is somewhat stretchy but I haven't had a single piece of it break yet even though it is easy to just tear a piece of to the correct length.

If you are having mold problems the dilute bleach spray is great for that but I would advise following up with a copper spray for added protection in the next day or two after using it.

Always remove all the lower leaves and all leaves below the lowest trusses and if sun scald isn't a problem in the greenhouse then you can remove most of the lower leaves to allow better air flow.

Below is a picture showing a stem support which must be used early in the truss development to prevent kinking , a J hook supporting a heavy tomato truss, and a tomato clip supporting the main stem, all doing the job they are intended for.

Bill

[Shapshftr]

Originally Posted by xellos99

Thanks for you post. I have worked out a plan for next year now but will still look into the methods you mention.
I will purpose build a very strong support system made for the job next time. I overestimated the ability of the trusses to support themselves. This variety was grown commercially in greenhouses long before I was born and I assumed they did not have to support the thousands of trusses they must have had individually.

Glad to hear you haven't given up yet. Trial and error is often the best teacher. Maybe it would help if you made those A frame style trellises so the plants can lay against them for better support. I use horizontal trellises to support the vines and fruit of my plants. I only prune the bottom growth early after planting, then let them grow wild. My plants are 6 ft wide and have no support problems.

Commercial greenhouses know all the science involved in growing plants to assist in their growing techniques. They produce very stocky hardy seedlings that are good strong plants. They also analyze the leaf and plant matter throughout growth, to know exactly what nutrients they need.

You said you have a greenhouse fan. Maybe you need to make it blow on the plants more to toughen the stems and trusses. I think I'm going to try that impedance method. It would be cool to have the plants support the weight of the plexiglass all by themselves.

[Shapshftr]

Originally Posted by Hellmanns

This link shows phosphate, and potassium are responsible for strong stems.
http://www.sunset.com/m/garden/garde...se-fertilizers

Yes I've seen that magazine page too, and I think they worded that poorly. It says:

"Another type is meant to stimulate root growth, stem vigor, and flower and fruit production. Fertilizers of this sort contain little nitrogen and higher levels of phosphorus and potassium; the N-P-K ratio may be 3-20-20, for example."

It should say P stimulates root growth and K stimulates stem vigor and fruit production.

I wish I could find the page of scientific info I had on how N & K work together to make chlorophyll and plant tissue cells. But these statements are all I can find on the subject at this moment:

"The soil nutrients nitrogen and potassium are responsible for healthy stem growth."

"Unlike nitrogen and phosphorus, potassium is not used in the structural synthesis of bio-chemically important molecules. Potassium is found within the plant cell solution and is used for maintaining the turgor pressure of the cell (meaning it keeps the plant from wilting). In addition, potassium plays a role in the proper functioning of stomata (cells located on the bottom of the leaf that open and close to allow water vapor and waste gases to escape) and acts as an enzyme activator."

Phosphorus is needed for cell division, which is crucial to the entire growth process. Needless to say, they need all 3 nutes, but in different amounts at different times. Hence that ratio they give of "3-20-20" would be used later in the growing season, after a higher amount of nitrogen has given the plant what it needs for vigorous foliage growth. More P and K are needed then for flowering and fruiting.

When I said, "Also, improper fertilizing causes weak stems." My point was that high N is needed early on, and then more P & K later.

[Hellmanns]

Originally Posted by Shapshftr

Yes I've seen that magazine page too, and I think they worded that poorly. It says:

"Another type is meant to stimulate root growth, stem vigor, and flower and fruit production. Fertilizers of this sort contain little nitrogen and higher levels of phosphorus and potassium; the N-P-K ratio may be 3-20-20, for example."

It should say P stimulates root growth and K stimulates stem vigor and fruit production.

I wish I could find the page of scientific info I had on how N & K work together to make chlorophyll and plant tissue cells. But these statements are all I can find on the subject at this moment:

"The soil nutrients nitrogen and potassium are responsible for healthy stem growth."

"Unlike nitrogen and phosphorus, potassium is not used in the structural synthesis of bio-chemically important molecules. Potassium is found within the plant cell solution and is used for maintaining the turgor pressure of the cell (meaning it keeps the plant from wilting). In addition, potassium plays a role in the proper functioning of stomata (cells located on the bottom of the leaf that open and close to allow water vapor and waste gases to escape) and acts as an enzyme activator."

Phosphorus is needed for cell division, which is crucial to the entire growth process. Needless to say, they need all 3 nutes, but in different amounts at different times. Hence that ratio they give of "3-20-20" would be used later in the growing season, after a higher amount of nitrogen has given the plant what it needs for vigorous foliage growth. More P and K are needed then for flowering and fruiting.

When I said, "Also, improper fertilizing causes weak stems." My point was that high N is needed early on, and then more P & K later.

Like you said, it takes several macro nutrients and a few micros for good plant health. I've read a few articles on the subject over the years too, and have put them into practice. If I ran into what I thought was a nutritional problem I didn't understand, I set out to better understand it, then fix it.

There was no internet back then, only books. I've bought a bunch of books through the years to help me understand tomatoes, and their nutritional needs. The very issue expressed in this thread of truss collapse is a problem I had years ago. It was such an issue to me that I ordered this little book. And when I say little, I mean it. It is tiny, and I remember what my wife said when I told her what it cost. but the information I learned from it solved my issues with the problem. None, to an occasional truss collapse since I upped the phosphate 25 years ago.

[Hellmanns]

Another article on phosphate for stem strength.

http://www.cropnutrition.com/efu-phosphorus

[Shapshftr]

Awesome. Great info Hellmann's. Whatever it takes to prevent truss collapse is the main thing. I have also read that calcium and phosphorus are needed for for strong stems. Overall, soil testing is a must. There may be plenty of phosphorus in the soil, but more nitrogen is needed for it to be taken up by the plants.

This is where too many gardeners go wrong. Without testing, they just add fertilizer because plants need nutrients. But if your soil is already very high in any one of them, adding more of it is only going to cause problems. I think most people subscribe to the philosophy that, If a little bit is good, more is better! Not so in gardening.

I also think the original poster needs to make sure his greenhouse plants get some movement to strengthen the stems. Instead of staking them to posts, he may benefit from tying them to hanging twine like commercial greenhouses do. The twine would sway a bit and stimulate the stems to grow stronger.

I used to grow seedlings indoors that were very healthy, but had very weak stems. They would droop from the weight of the leaves. Now that I have a fan going inside my mini greenhouse to provide air movement, they get real strong stems that stand up to the wind when they first get set out in the garden.

[nhardy]

This is totally strange. I Googled.co.uk for tomato fertilizers in the UK. Most of them were lower in phosphates like Tomorite of 4-3-8. Take Baby Bio Tomato by Bayer, it is 6-5-9. Or Gro-Sure tomato food by Westland, it's 6-3-10. With lower phosphates amounts, will they all in UK have BER?

Xellos99 you will have to get some bone meal to provide more phosphates. But stay away from the one combined with blood meal.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by nhardy

This is totally strange. I Googled.co.uk for tomato fertilizers in the UK. Most of them were lower in phosphates like Tomorite of 4-3-8. Take Baby Bio Tomato by Bayer, it is 6-5-9. Or Gro-Sure tomato food by Westland, it's 6-3-10. With lower phosphates amounts, will they all in UK have BER?

Many tomato fertilizers are lower in P than K. TomatoTone is 3-4-6. Texas Tomato Food is 4-2.5-7. Both are tomato formulas with very good reputations and high customer loyalty. A lot of hydroponic formulas I've encountered have up to 2x more K than P.

[nhardy]

I did find one from Doff Tomato Feed Concentrate, 4-5-8.

Personally I used Tomato Tone for the first time this year. I prepared my soil down 10 plus inches with 1/3 Tomato Tone and 1/3 of bulb food 8-20-15. Both lower in nitrogen but high in phosphate & potassium. My soil was totally spent. My toms are healthy 6 plus tall.