white fly soap damage

[Shapshftr]

That stuff is outrageously expensive. I'm going to try fogging with pyrethroids.

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by Shapshftr

That stuff is outrageously expensive. I'm going to try fogging with pyrethroids.

It's not too bad when you calculate it out- 1/2 teaspoon per gallon is all you use. Keep it in a cool dark place to stay alive.

[b54red]

Originally Posted by Shapshftr

That stuff is outrageously expensive. I'm going to try fogging with pyrethroids.

Adding in the food grade DE and the Dawn will make the pyrethrin or permethrin much more effective for a much longer time. If you are fighting anything like spider mites with just a contact poison you will have to spray every few days for weeks to really get a handle on them and even then it may not be enough. Short lived poisons are very ineffective by themselves on spider mites due to their short life cycle and the massive amount of eggs they lay which will continue to hatch out and destroy even after poisoning. The DE film left by spraying it on all parts of the plants seems to really do a number on the juveniles when they hatch out up until it gets washed off. The Dawn helps the poison penetrate the webbing so it can actually contact the adult mites and kill them. If you do use the food grade diatomaceous earth in your mix make sure to first pre mix it with some water and shake it up well then strain it into your sprayer. It doesn't take a lot of water to mix it because it suspends quite easily but it can have some clumps which will clog a sprayer if it isn't thoroughly mixed and it needs to be shaken occasionally during spraying to stop it from settling and then clogging the spray head.

Bill

[Shapshftr]

Originally Posted by b54red

Adding in the food grade DE and the Dawn will make the pyrethrin or permethrin much more effective for a much longer time. If you are fighting anything like spider mites with just a contact poison you will have to spray every few days for weeks to really get a handle on them and even then it may not be enough. Short lived poisons are very ineffective by themselves on spider mites due to their short life cycle and the massive amount of eggs they lay which will continue to hatch out and destroy even after poisoning. The DE film left by spraying it on all parts of the plants seems to really do a number on the juveniles when they hatch out up until it gets washed off. The Dawn helps the poison penetrate the webbing so it can actually contact the adult mites and kill them. If you do use the food grade diatomaceous earth in your mix make sure to first pre mix it with some water and shake it up well then strain it into your sprayer. It doesn't take a lot of water to mix it because it suspends quite easily but it can have some clumps which will clog a sprayer if it isn't thoroughly mixed and it needs to be shaken occasionally during spraying to stop it from settling and then clogging the spray head.

Bill

Thanks Bill. I may try the DE at some point, but I'm sure it will clog the sprayer and I don't want to be dealing with that hassle. Have you ever used Kaolin? They say it does the same as DE.

But for the insecticidal soap, I prefer to use castile, because it's REAL SOAP. Detergents are not, therefore don't work as good. Soap is made from fats so they have fatty acids, which is what breaks down the bugs outer membrane. There are some good recipes for it on this page:

http://plantcaretoday.com/homemade-i...ap-recipe.html

But the problem with that whole approach is you have to get it directly on the bugs for it to work. My plants are SO DENSE that I wouldn't be able to see and spray them all. So I plan to use the pyrethrins with an additive that makes it work better, in my propane fogger. The fog will reach everywhere inside the plant mass. I may also make a soap spray for the tank sprayer with castile and neem oil and some of the other recommended additives (Cayenne pepper, red pepper, garlic, powerful herbs and extracts, cider vinegar). I'm a bit of a mad scientist.

[Shapshftr]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

It's not too bad when you calculate it out- 1/2 teaspoon per gallon is all you use. Keep it in a cool dark place to stay alive.

That's the problem. Live cultures don't survive for long. So I would only get a few treatments out of it this year and then it would be dead.

[Barb_FL]

Where do you buy Met-52? Do you buy the 8 oz or is there a powder form?

It was out of stock on Planet Natural and $80 plus > $10 shipping on Amazon.

I've spent way more than $60 for sticky traps per season.

[Scooty]

Permethrin is ridiculously effective. The clothing insect spray is 0.5% permethrin concentration (good for 6 washes or 6 weeks), same concentration recommended to spray around buildings. If you get lice, the medicated permethrin cream is I believe between 1%-5%.

In agricultural use, instructions for every single permethrin product I've seen dilute to like ~0.03% for veggies, 0.04% for orchards fruits.

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by Barb_FL

Where do you buy Met-52? Do you buy the 8 oz or is there a powder form?

It was out of stock on Planet Natural and $80 plus > $10 shipping on Amazon.

I've spent way more than $60 for sticky traps per season.

Barb, it does say shelf life is only 9 months, so it might not be that good of an option. It was used on my tomato russet mites, and frankly I saw no difference after using. I don't think I would get it again.

[b54red]

Originally Posted by Shapshftr

Thanks Bill. I may try the DE at some point, but I'm sure it will clog the sprayer and I don't want to be dealing with that hassle. Have you ever used Kaolin? They say it does the same as DE.

But for the insecticidal soap, I prefer to use castile, because it's REAL SOAP. Detergents are not, therefore don't work as good. Soap is made from fats so they have fatty acids, which is what breaks down the bugs outer membrane. There are some good recipes for it on this page:

http://plantcaretoday.com/homemade-i...ap-recipe.html

But the problem with that whole approach is you have to get it directly on the bugs for it to work. My plants are SO DENSE that I wouldn't be able to see and spray them all. So I plan to use the pyrethrins with an additive that makes it work better, in my propane fogger. The fog will reach everywhere inside the plant mass. I may also make a soap spray for the tank sprayer with castile and neem oil and some of the other recommended additives (Cayenne pepper, red pepper, garlic, powerful herbs and extracts, cider vinegar). I'm a bit of a mad scientist.

Yeah there is no way the DE would work in a fogger. The Dawn is not there just to attack the insects but rather to allow the Permethrin to get through the webbing to the mites. I use a very powerful backpack sprayer that really can put out a super fine mist but when using the DE I don't try spraying that fine because even after straining it will start clogging the nozzle at the very fine mist setting and I have to keep opening it up. All I have to do is open the nozzle just a bit to clear it but it is a hassle so I just use a slightly coarser spray and it works great. Of course I could use less DE in my mix but I have found that using the higher amount of between 2/3 cup and 3/4 cup per gallon leaves a much more effective layer of DE on the plants and it works so much better than a small amount of DE. With the Zika virus starting to show up I think a lot of people will be using a fogger with Permethrin to clear mosquitoes in their back yards before having a cookout or gathering before long.

I agree that using a fogger for plants that are overgrown might be the most effective thing. One of the main reasons I prune my plants so heavily keeping them to no more than a couple of stems at the most is because of the difficulty of applying a good spray coverage. Down here where foliage diseases and insects are rampant good coverage is a must. I used to love looking at big beautiful dense tomato plants until I realized shortly after they got to looking that way they always got terribly diseased and or infested with pests that I couldn't seem to get rid of in time to save the plants because I couldn't get complete coverage when spraying. In areas with less disease pressure and less insect pressure pruning is probably not as vital. I hope the fogger does the job but I have my doubts if the plants are that dense. You might want to try opening them up some by pruning them enough to open the plant up more. Even if you do get good coverage and it kills most of the mites you will need to repeat the fogging frequently to keep the newly hatched mites from taking over. Keep posting and let us know how the fogging worked after a couple of weeks. I would really like to know because it seems like it would be a great way to spray a lot of plants with less physical effort.

Good luck, Bill

[Shapshftr]

Originally Posted by b54red

Yeah there is no way the DE would work in a fogger. The Dawn is not there just to attack the insects but rather to allow the Permethrin to get through the webbing to the mites. I use a very powerful backpack sprayer that really can put out a super fine mist but when using the DE I don't try spraying that fine because even after straining it will start clogging the nozzle at the very fine mist setting and I have to keep opening it up. All I have to do is open the nozzle just a bit to clear it but it is a hassle so I just use a slightly coarser spray and it works great. Of course I could use less DE in my mix but I have found that using the higher amount of between 2/3 cup and 3/4 cup per gallon leaves a much more effective layer of DE on the plants and it works so much better than a small amount of DE. With the Zika virus starting to show up I think a lot of people will be using a fogger with Permethrin to clear mosquitoes in their back yards before having a cookout or gathering before long.

I agree that using a fogger for plants that are overgrown might be the most effective thing. One of the main reasons I prune my plants so heavily keeping them to no more than a couple of stems at the most is because of the difficulty of applying a good spray coverage. Down here where foliage diseases and insects are rampant good coverage is a must. I used to love looking at big beautiful dense tomato plants until I realized shortly after they got to looking that way they always got terribly diseased and or infested with pests that I couldn't seem to get rid of in time to save the plants because I couldn't get complete coverage when spraying. In areas with less disease pressure and less insect pressure pruning is probably not as vital. I hope the fogger does the job but I have my doubts if the plants are that dense. You might want to try opening them up some by pruning them enough to open the plant up more. Even if you do get good coverage and it kills most of the mites you will need to repeat the fogging frequently to keep the newly hatched mites from taking over. Keep posting and let us know how the fogging worked after a couple of weeks. I would really like to know because it seems like it would be a great way to spray a lot of plants with less physical effort.

Good luck, Bill

Thanks for all the info Bill. My concern isn't mites, at least I don't think I have them. Instead I'm aiming for stink bugs that seem to have suddenly showed up. I also noticed a whole bunch of small black winged bugs like gnats on the leaves. They are too small to get a real good look to identify them.

I agree that I may have to do some pruning to be able to spray better. My big open trellis design allows me to get inside the plants better with my spray wand, but the plants are SO BIG now, that it will still be difficult. Each plant is 6 ft in diameter. Years ago when I gardened with a friend, we had to prune heavily due to some sort of fungal disease. Everyone in his area gets it. He thought it was EB, but I thought it looked like Septoria Leaf spot. It always starts around the beginning of June. A horticulturist that works with his son stopped by one day and had a look at his plants and said it was powdery mildew and told him to spray with Neem until it's running off them. He did and said it stops it dead in it's tracks.

So for now I figure I will use the fogger on them to try to take down the stink bugs and whatever gnats or such have moved in on them. I know the fogger will get all the way through them and come out the other side. They will look like they are smoking, LOL. I just don't know if the permethrins will kill the stink bugs. Keeping my fingers crossed on that. If not I may have to thin them out good so I can get the sprayer in them to get good coverage.

I also read that you can do a soil drench with permethrins to get whatever bugs are living in the dirt. I may try that too because I noticed that the very bottom leaves have been getting tiny spots and pin holes in them from being on or near the ground. I haven't worried about that because those leaves are still green and the rest of the plants are so dense and healthy. I don't have any leaves turning brown and dying, thankfully.

[b54red]

Originally Posted by Shapshftr

Thanks for all the info Bill. My concern isn't mites, at least I don't think I have them. Instead I'm aiming for stink bugs that seem to have suddenly showed up. I also noticed a whole bunch of small black winged bugs like gnats on the leaves. They are too small to get a real good look to identify them.

I agree that I may have to do some pruning to be able to spray better. My big open trellis design allows me to get inside the plants better with my spray wand, but the plants are SO BIG now, that it will still be difficult. Each plant is 6 ft in diameter. Years ago when I gardened with a friend, we had to prune heavily due to some sort of fungal disease. Everyone in his area gets it. He thought it was EB, but I thought it looked like Septoria Leaf spot. It always starts around the beginning of June. A horticulturist that works with his son stopped by one day and had a look at his plants and said it was powdery mildew and told him to spray with Neem until it's running off them. He did and said it stops it dead in it's tracks.

So for now I figure I will use the fogger on them to try to take down the stink bugs and whatever gnats or such have moved in on them. I know the fogger will get all the way through them and come out the other side. They will look like they are smoking, LOL. I just don't know if the permethrins will kill the stink bugs. Keeping my fingers crossed on that. If not I may have to thin them out good so I can get the sprayer in them to get good coverage.

I also read that you can do a soil drench with permethrins to get whatever bugs are living in the dirt. I may try that too because I noticed that the very bottom leaves have been getting tiny spots and pin holes in them from being on or near the ground. I haven't worried about that because those leaves are still green and the rest of the plants are so dense and healthy. I don't have any leaves turning brown and dying, thankfully.

Don't do the soil drench with Permethrin! You will kill too many good things in the soil. A little runoff from the spraying won't hurt but drenching could be a disaster. The problem with the lower leaves sounds like flea beetles and the Permethrin should take care of them; just make sure to fog the ground or mulch under them lightly, they are easy to kill. Permethrin will kill stink bugs but it needs to be sprayed at a higher concentration than with most other insects but I don't think it will work on the eggs that they have laid so you might have to spray again in a week or so if you start seeing small ones moving around.

Bill

[Scooty]

Originally Posted by b54red

Don't do the soil drench with Permethrin! You will kill too many good things in the soil. A little runoff from the spraying won't hurt but drenching could be a disaster. The problem with the lower leaves sounds like flea beetles and the Permethrin should take care of them; just make sure to fog the ground or mulch under them lightly, they are easy to kill. Permethrin will kill stink bugs but it needs to be sprayed at a higher concentration than with most other insects but I don't think it will work on the eggs that they have laid so you might have to spray again in a week or so if you start seeing small ones moving around.

Bill

If I remember correctly, Permethrin has no suppression or toxic effect on earthworms. It can be safely applied to worm bins. It does have a highly toxic effect on fish (and cats), so bad for those that have run off into ponds. Spinosad, meanwhile, is toxic to earthworms, though safe for fish (and cats).