Cherokee Purple oddity -- nearly seedless

[HudsonValley]

CP experts (Craig?) -- I bagged blossoms (actually, buds) and tagged greenies several weeks ago on my beloved Cherokee Purple plant, which I grew from seeds from last year's plant. I purchased last year's CP locally as a seedling.

A recent bagged/tagged fruit was an oddball with an unusually small number of seeds, little gel, and a "meatier," more "veiny" texture than other CPs, even from the same plant. It reminded me of the interiors of heart-shaped tomatoes, but the CP in question had the expected shape. The color, flavor, and size were also as expected, and consistent with the other tomatoes from this plant and its "parent" plant. I think there MIGHT be two dozen seeds in total; they are fermenting separately, and I'd need to do a germination test to see if they're even viable.

It occurred to me to take a photo (attached) after I scooped out the seeds, but before my husband and I ate the thing. Note that the color is a little off in the picture, but it looked o.k. in person. Also note that I used my fingers and a teaspoon in an attempt to excavate non-existent seeds, which made a bit of a mess. I wish I had sliced it at the "equator," but I was trying to save seeds and make a salad simultaneously.
The tomato tasted great, but I'm wondering whether anyone else has found a nearly seedless CP on an otherwise normal plant, and whether it's better to save seeds only from more typical ("seedier") fruits?

[KarenO]

I find sometimes the earliest fruits on my plants have less seeds than later fruit and this is pretty normal in my garden. temperature, Nutrient imbalances are also important in seed formation.
You can save seeds from this fruit I think. If you need more, save from subsequent fruit also.
KarenO

[Gardeneer]

The number of seeds correspond to the number of the ovules that get pollinated. The most physical explanation is a corn. The number of the seeds. kernels , if pollinated will be equal to the number of silks. I think that in early spring/cool weather not all pollen and ovules are viable.JMO

[PhilaGardener]

I occasionally pick a tomato containing few, it any, seeds. Other tomatoes on the plant are normal, so that suggested (to me) more a chance event than a genetic mutation, maybe because of temperature fluctuations early in development. It will be interesting to know what you get when you grow out those few seeds, vs. "regular" CP seeds from a different fruit of the same plant.

[nctomatoman]

I do see variation in that sort of thing with all tomatoes, especially if the weather is a bit out of the ordinary.

What I have observed with Cherokee Purple over recent years are fruits being sold at markets that are clearly not what I first received and grew - I've purchased a few to sample, and I've noted drastically incorrect internal structure - and occasionally very bland flavor.

I would have to save seeds from them, grow them and compare to my seed stock. That way clear genetic differences can be determined, rather than just physiological effects (weather, conditions, etc).

This year I grew three CP plants each from seed only one generation removed from what Mr. Green sent me....all were just excellent. My oldest seed to germinate was 16 years old, which is a record for me!

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

. . . What I have observed with Cherokee Purple over recent years are fruits being sold at markets that are clearly not what I first received and grew - I've purchased a few to sample, and I've noted drastically incorrect internal structure . . .

Sadly common with many varieties and pretty much inevitable when people come to believe that bagging blossoms or isolating plants are unimportant in maintaining true seed for a variety, don't you think?

I recall seeing where David Burpee answered a query in the early/mid 20th century about whether he thought some people's inclination to save seeds diminished the market for his (non-hybrid) seeds. His reply was that it didn't if he could convince people that every few years they should grow a plant from Burpee seed and compare it -- because the failure of seed savers to protect their seed from crossing (plus the inability to grow enough plants and rogue skillfully) ensured that in a few generations what people were growing would be different from, and usually inferior to, the Burpee original.

I've wondered whether it might help a little if there was some place people could find specifics about original/correct internal structure as well as the other fruit and plant characteristics of varieties. Wouldn't stop the inevitable accumulation of crossed seed material resulting from lack of blossom protection, but might mitigate the effects by making it easier for people who care to recognize at least the conspicuously not-true fruit and plants.

[Worth1]

Seen a lot of pictures of certain verities of tomatoes that didn't look anything like each other.

Worth

[HudsonValley]

Many thanks for the responses and comments! Next year I'll just try growing a few of the oddball seeds (they and their gel sacs look larger than usual in my fermentation jar, but it could be an optical illusion) alongside leftover seed from my 2015 plant and see what happens... I personally have room for about 30 plants total, growing just one or two of each variety, but I share a lot of my tomatoes -- both fruit and seedlings -- with friends and colleagues and pretty much all of them consider CP their favorite. I don't know if there are any other bagged/tagged greenies on my current CP, but I should have more than enough seeds for 2017 regardless. (Craig, if you'd like a few of the oddball seeds, assuming no fermentation disasters, I'd be happy to send.)

As for nutrition, climate conditions, etc., I amended the bed with mushroom compost at the start of the season, and fed lightly with Mater Magic at planting time, after the first blossoms appeared, and one or two other times. July was a scorcher; CP dropped blossoms and stopped growing for a bit, but recovered after the heatwave broke. The tomatoes ripening now are from post-heatwave blossoms.

As for whether it's really CP or a cross, I can't say, but here's a photo of a fruit from the same plant, taken a couple of weeks ago when the first few ripened:

[gorbelly]

Bagged blossoms probably have fewer fertilized ovules unless you sonicate them manually. What's nice is that, unlike a lot of tomatoes, yours seem to still get to a normal size even with few fertilized ovules.

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by gorbelly

Bagged blossoms probably have fewer fertilized ovules unless you sonicate them manually. . . .

Are you thinking because of diminished wind?

Because, of course eliminating fertilizations by little visitors is the whole point. [g]

I've had good luck bagging with large pieces of white tulle, fan folded along the edges and then secured with three ties (for security against a bit of tulle edge escaping from just one tie). I put it around not just the blossom cluster, but also around a trimmed leaf or two, which helps keep the largish "bag" expanded.

They seem to be less likely to get overheated that way, and do get some wind effects . . . but I try to shake all the blooming plants, bagged or otherwise, a couple times a day if I can. Fruit set frequency and quality seems to be at least as good in the bags as outside them -- not saying that would be true under all conditions, but it does usually work well here.

Problem here is that even bagging the first blooms it can be hard to get the fruit mature before weather changes, and fruit for seed I keep trying to let mature on the vine if possible . . . but sometimes decide to let it have just a little more time when I really *could* have picked it and alas, Jack Frost and Snow Miser show up unexpectedly.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by JLJ_

Are you thinking because of diminished wind?

Depending on how you bag, the movements caused by wind can be dampened. But I've never found wind to be a particularly great pollinator of tomatoes. It does the job better than no wind, such as in greenhouses, etc., sure, but sonicating bees like bumblebees really make the difference for heavy fruit set and larger fruits, in my observation. I always get much heavier fruit set once the bumbles start visiting, even though the weather should technically be more challenging for fruit set at that time due to heat. In really hot weather, both wind and bees only do so much, of course, but anything up to mid 90s temps results in good fruit set for me as long as there are bumblebees around. Next year, I'm going to use an electric toothbrush on blooms until the bumblebees start noticing my tomatoes.

Originally Posted by JLJ_

Because, of course eliminating fertilizations by little visitors is the whole point. [g]

That and having a barrier to any windborne pollen. But the sonication action isn't what causes crossing--it's the fact that bees are covered in pollen from other plants. At any rate, it's the sonication action, not the foreign pollen, that causes more successful fruit set and larger fruit from blooms visited by bees, since even with bees, the structure of the tomato flower makes it hard for foreign pollen to access the stigmas. So using an electric toothbrush on bagged blooms will increase number of seeds and fruit size without any risk of crossing, as opposed to the small but significant risk of crossing when fully exposed to wind and bees.

[Fred Hempel]

I think it is likely that Cherokee Purple is now a moniker (like heirloom) that has been appropriated.

My guess is that Cherokee Purple is the name given to many black tomatoes one might find at a farmer's market, or in a supermarket.

Don't think we can blame the bees for all of the differences.

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

I do see variation in that sort of thing with all tomatoes, especially if the weather is a bit out of the ordinary.

What I have observed with Cherokee Purple over recent years are fruits being sold at markets that are clearly not what I first received and grew - I've purchased a few to sample, and I've noted drastically incorrect internal structure - and occasionally very bland flavor.

I would have to save seeds from them, grow them and compare to my seed stock. That way clear genetic differences can be determined, rather than just physiological effects (weather, conditions, etc).

This year I grew three CP plants each from seed only one generation removed from what Mr. Green sent me....all were just excellent. My oldest seed to germinate was 16 years old, which is a record for me!

[nctomatoman]

That's a great point, Fred, and certainly likely. Over the last few years I've purchased some "Cherokee Purple" from various vendors at the Raleigh Farmers Market. Few were what I had experienced knowledge with as Cherokee Purple - sometimes it was obvious, sometimes only when cut into - but there were certainly tomatoes closer to Black Krim and Black from Tula amongst those Cherokee Purples.

Same thing has been happening here for years with the NC heirloom German Johnson - some with green shoulders, some uniform, some very ridged, some very smooth. In purchased fruit, some were bland/mild, some intense - I've saved some seeds over the years and grown some out - some much closer to Brandywine than German Johnson.

[slugworth]

looks like a pollination problem similar to plants grown indoors.