trying different support systems

JRinPA · September 28, 2017

My mom used to stake/sprawl tomatoes. Some years were good, but others were ugly. If the garden stayed too wet or ignored/weedy, the entire patch could be pretty much lost to rot, birds, and squirrels. When I started gardening, it did not take me long to make changes. Of course, the internet has made finding alternatives very easy.

I first used cages about 5 years back. CRW cages, 5' high, 18-20" wide. It was a huge step up. While they can be a pain to store, they are really easy to grow in, keep the tomatoes up off the ground, and give large numbers of tomatoes through the whole season. The first few years I'd worry about disease and try to keep them pruned, but have since decided it really isn't worth the effort, here.

A few years ago I read about florida weave, and a grower friend showed me soon thereafter that he does it that way, though he called it stick and string. I tried that for two years at a friend's garden patch, but both years were dry. It worked, and was good experience, but was not great yields.

Last year I was able to try the weave for the first time at home, in rich soil, where I could tend it everyday and water if necessary. The plants were late plantings, but still turned into a jungle in no time with decent yield.

This year, I florida weaved about 25 plants, planting out in mid May. Full sun, good compost, deep aeration, and black bio mulch. They grew like heck, and generally produced heavily for a few trusses before really getting overrun with blight/septoria. I had planned from the beginning to pull them in August to put in fall peas. I topped them in mid-July, planted peas on either side of each row in early August, and left the tomatoes in for pea shade and ripening of last ones. I finally pulled the tomatoes in late August. That worked out perfectly, but to be honest they were pretty rough with disease by mid July. I don't prune as a rule, and while that seems to work fine in cages, that weave got really heavy by August. When the bottom leaves died, there was some slippage as well. I don't see the possibility of Florida weave lasting until end of September with unpruned indeterminates - something that works fine with CRW cages.

This realization led me try single stem for the first time this year. Maybe I would need to sucker the florida weave plants, but I wanted to test first. In early August when I put the peas in, I also transplanted a couple of big beef seedlings near them. I ran them up a string tied to a 10 ft rebar, and have been suckering them religiously. I will say, it is much easier to keep track of them as single stem. They both set two trusses of 3 good size tomatoes, then part of a third before running out of water or warmth. They look like they should ripen, but now we are getting mid 40s again so we'll see. Still, I can see the advantage and I could plant really close; I start my own seeds now so growing 100 is no more work than growing 25.

What concerns me though about the single stem is the blight following those single stems right up, just the same as the blight does in florida weave or cages. These have plastic under them, so no splash. They are not in contact with other tomatoes. Plenty of air around them, and still the disease. It just seems to be the nature of tomatoes here - if they are out in this humid air the leaves get spots no matter what, and the leaves yellow and die off. It's just a matter of how soon, depending on the weather. The tomatoes are still fine, usually. It's not late blight, or grey mold, or any really nasty stuff. I have to wonder, though, if single stem from the start in May will just be too susceptible to disease overpowering that few number of leaves. Next year I will definitely consider florida weave with just 1-3 stems per plant, instead of the uncensored version I had this year.

This year I also tried another type of support that I read about here - a horizontal fence in multiple layers. I don't know if it has a name. I've been calling it the "tomato sandwich". In spring I had brocolli and peas in a 3.5x11 ft, 4" deep raised bed. In May I put in a line of tomatoes on east side edge of the bed. They'd get a few hours of sun in the morning, then were shadowed by buildings and by the peas in afternoon. Consequently, they grew tall and skinny, and were severely retarded compared to my normal plantings. I pulled the pea trellis in mid June and put six rebar in a rectangle around the bed. The tomatoes at that time were a skinny 3' or so, straight up on the east edge. I layed the CRW horizontally, about 2' high, and secured with zipties to the six posts. I added another horizontal layer as they grew, and finally a third layer at the top. They had spread out of course and filled the whole panel by the third one. I did have to put some cut up pool noodle as bumpers on that first layer of CRW so the dogs could see it, but other than that, it has really worked well. The tomatoes are super easy to harvest, have huge area to sprawl with support, and lots of air. It is less conventional, but it definitely works. I would say it is a two person job to construct, but could be done solo with a couple of vice grips/bar clamps to act as ledge to hold the fence up on one side while the other side is adjusted and tied in.

Other than cherries, my cages are about done, the florida weave is long done, those single stem poles have some tomatoes that should ripen, but that flat fence is still loaded with tomatoes.

I always find it pretty neat to think how many different ways tomatoes can grow. Next year I will still use CRW cages, but will also use these other systems when it suits. Maybe a new support if it sounds good. And I will most assuredly stagger tomatoes and pea trellis in the same space. They complement well in the same space with some overlap at end of spring or mid-summer.

PhilaGardener · September 28, 2017

Thought it was a personal thread at first Lol!

jtjmartin · September 28, 2017

Hey JR:

I've staked and used CRW cages, but this year I moved to mostly single stem lean and lower. Loved it. I'm a good bit more south than you, so some of my vines must be 15' long.

None of my caged plants are still alive while most of my single stems are. I think the single stems dry quicker, have better air flow between them and are easier to spray. It looks pretty cool, too! I'll use it again this next year.

There are a bunch of threads with good pictures. Here's one:

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...n+lower&page=2

Jeff

Worth1 · September 29, 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilaGardener

Thought it was a personal thread at first Lol!

Me too.

Worth

zipcode · September 29, 2017

Sounds like you have septoria or something like that. Single stem doesn't seem to do much against that (it does against most other things). Morning sun is critical against septoria.
I still think there's nothing like one stem, one stake for ease of management, amount of work and production.
The problems with this appear if your season is long enough or growth good enough, for them to get too tall. It's just a pain to manage them after that, which is why good strong tall stakes are important (2.5 meters for a normal season should be ok).

JRinPA · September 29, 2017

"Thought it was a personal thread at first"....I don't even know what that means! lol. Like 12 step or something? lol. Well, I need to try some of them too, please lend me your vast experience!

JRinPA · September 29, 2017

I really don't want a big contraption of a garden for tomatoes. I'm trying to picture the lean and lower setup. I have seen the big frames of EMT or other pipe or wire with strings hanging, but that doesn't appeal to me. I have serious doubt that tomatoes can stay disease free, here, without sprays and such.

I'm hoping florida weave works with 1-3 stems. I have tomato twine, rebar of 5 ft and 10 ft (or 9.5' on pairs of 5ft I lap welded 6"), and CRW, and really don't plan to invest in any more material. Well, possibly some cattle panels for big arches for squash and melons. We did that at my brother's place and I think it works great.

Another CRW support that works great is 11' of the 5' wide CRW bent into 5', 1', 5'. Five foot high, one foot wide...works great to trellis two rows of peas started in March, trench some cherry tomatoes between the rows in May, then pull the peas in June and by August it forms a wall of cherry tomatoes. Those are still going strong.

Gardeneer · September 30, 2017

i tried string-lean-n-lower this year . It was not a success for two reason:

1- I was not disciplined enough to keep up with it.
2- Then my strings failed me. The worst one was mason line. It became so brittle so soon. So the branches fell and became a sprawlING system.

Since I have my stringing system is already in place , I will do a combination of staking and stringing next season.

b54red · October 1, 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

i tried string-lean-n-lower this year . It was not a success for two reason:

1- I was not disciplined enough to keep up with it.
2- Then my strings failed me. The worst one was mason line. It became so brittle so soon. So the branches fell and became a sprawlING system.

Since I have my stringing system is already in place , I will do a combination of staking and stringing next season.

Go to a tractor or farm store and get some square bale twine. It is thick and strong and the clips fit it perfectly and don't slip. I have been using it for years and have never had a single piece break during out long season. It usually is a bright orange color and I believe it is polypropylene and also sun resistant so it doesn't break down as the season goes on like most other twines will do. It is usually sold in double packs but some places will sell single rolls. A single roll has a huge amount on it so it will be a while before you use it up unless you plant a lot of plants like I do. It can also be used for doing the Florida weave as it doesn't stretch like most other twines.

The single stem lean and lower system allows one to plant more varieties in less space and if the pruning and lowering is kept up then it is the easiest successful method I have found for growing tomatoes. It however is not the best method if you want a lot of tomatoes in a short time for canning or market as you only have one stem producing fruit. It is the best method for long term growing in a long season but for a short season I would recommend using a tall fence or lattice type structure so you can grow more than two stems but still keep it fairly open for spraying and pruning.

I actually used the horizontal fence method for two years and liked it and hated it at the same time. It is a pain to build and set up and even more of a pain to clean up at the end of the season. If you make it too narrow then the plants are constantly draping off the sides and if it is too wide then you can't easily reach the middle. If I were only growing a few plants it is a really good method once you figure out the dimensions and height to set it up. I ran my first horizontal fence about two and a half feet above the ground and waited to set up my upper fence which was about four and a half feet off the ground and much wider than the lower fence. I waited to build my top fence until after the lower one was covered with vines then just feed them up to the upper one and let them go. It would have worked better with a shorter season as I eventually had a huge mass of vines to deal with due to the very long season we have. Spraying and pruning are also difficult but will help with better production using this system. You just don't want too many stems going at once if you want good production and tomatoes of decent size.

Bill

Gardeneer · October 1, 2017

Bill, thanks for the twine info.
Yes we do have both Tractor Supply and feed store nearby.
Actually this reminds me to go to the feed store and get some seeds , to plant as green manure. Rye ? or wheat ?. I will check the twine too. I think I have seen those twines used to bale pine straw. Like you said , I can use it both for stringing and Florida Weaving. Thanks again.

Worth1 · October 1, 2017

Annual ryegrass is what you want.

Worth

Gardeneer · October 1, 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worth1

Annual ryegrass is what you want.

Worth

Great. Now I know what to plant.

About half of my garden is vacant now ( about 250 sq-ft).

NewWestGardener · October 2, 2017

Interesting read on your experiments and observations.
I planted about 400 hundred determinant paste tomatoes. The vines were short and heavy, they just flopped onto the fabric I laid down at planting.
If anything, I will need some long nets on both sides of the plants, along the long rows, just to keep the fruit off the ground. No individual cages, too expensive and too much work.

JRinPA · October 3, 2017

I have never tried determinates. It does sound like netting might work to contain sprawling rows like that.

I actually think I will regress next year and cut back on this heirloom planting. I love them, taste and color, but they seem to get hit too hard by disease and many of them are lobed to some extent and end up cracking. I hate cutting up a tomato for sauce and throwing away 40% of it. I think I will shift back to more big beef, estiva, and another nice round tomato that I grew for the second year (a trade seed that was supposed to be stupice, but is RL and seems to be true to type so far, I dubbed fauxpice). Instead of ~ 75% heirlooms it will be more like 60/40 in favor of round hybrids.

The horizontal fence this year for me has most of my estiva and big beef. It may be it is still going stronger because they are the hybrids, or because of the relatively later growth, or due to greater airflow. One season is not comprehensive. Today I had some tomato sandwiches for lunch from some very chilly mortgage lifters picked fresh from that horizontal fence. Looks like I have another canner load of sauce from that 11'x3.5' bed yet.

I definitely do appreciate the options tomatoes allow in order to complement the spring and fall crops. Of course that is just here where I live in SE PA. Tomatoes are a long season crop here, May-Sept. I had brocolli in Apr- July. Peas are Mar-Jun and Aug-...Nov?, depending on frost. My peas from the florida weave shade are starting to come in heavy, now. I watered them twice last week and again this morning, as it has been dry this last few weeks. They aren't really sweet yet but I can hardly wait. Once the cold hits they really sugar up.

September 28, 2017	#1
JRinPA Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: SE PA Posts: 972	trying different support systems My mom used to stake/sprawl tomatoes. Some years were good, but others were ugly. If the garden stayed too wet or ignored/weedy, the entire patch could be pretty much lost to rot, birds, and squirrels. When I started gardening, it did not take me long to make changes. Of course, the internet has made finding alternatives very easy. I first used cages about 5 years back. CRW cages, 5' high, 18-20" wide. It was a huge step up. While they can be a pain to store, they are really easy to grow in, keep the tomatoes up off the ground, and give large numbers of tomatoes through the whole season. The first few years I'd worry about disease and try to keep them pruned, but have since decided it really isn't worth the effort, here. A few years ago I read about florida weave, and a grower friend showed me soon thereafter that he does it that way, though he called it stick and string. I tried that for two years at a friend's garden patch, but both years were dry. It worked, and was good experience, but was not great yields. Last year I was able to try the weave for the first time at home, in rich soil, where I could tend it everyday and water if necessary. The plants were late plantings, but still turned into a jungle in no time with decent yield. This year, I florida weaved about 25 plants, planting out in mid May. Full sun, good compost, deep aeration, and black bio mulch. They grew like heck, and generally produced heavily for a few trusses before really getting overrun with blight/septoria. I had planned from the beginning to pull them in August to put in fall peas. I topped them in mid-July, planted peas on either side of each row in early August, and left the tomatoes in for pea shade and ripening of last ones. I finally pulled the tomatoes in late August. That worked out perfectly, but to be honest they were pretty rough with disease by mid July. I don't prune as a rule, and while that seems to work fine in cages, that weave got really heavy by August. When the bottom leaves died, there was some slippage as well. I don't see the possibility of Florida weave lasting until end of September with unpruned indeterminates - something that works fine with CRW cages. This realization led me try single stem for the first time this year. Maybe I would need to sucker the florida weave plants, but I wanted to test first. In early August when I put the peas in, I also transplanted a couple of big beef seedlings near them. I ran them up a string tied to a 10 ft rebar, and have been suckering them religiously. I will say, it is much easier to keep track of them as single stem. They both set two trusses of 3 good size tomatoes, then part of a third before running out of water or warmth. They look like they should ripen, but now we are getting mid 40s again so we'll see. Still, I can see the advantage and I could plant really close; I start my own seeds now so growing 100 is no more work than growing 25. What concerns me though about the single stem is the blight following those single stems right up, just the same as the blight does in florida weave or cages. These have plastic under them, so no splash. They are not in contact with other tomatoes. Plenty of air around them, and still the disease. It just seems to be the nature of tomatoes here - if they are out in this humid air the leaves get spots no matter what, and the leaves yellow and die off. It's just a matter of how soon, depending on the weather. The tomatoes are still fine, usually. It's not late blight, or grey mold, or any really nasty stuff. I have to wonder, though, if single stem from the start in May will just be too susceptible to disease overpowering that few number of leaves. Next year I will definitely consider florida weave with just 1-3 stems per plant, instead of the uncensored version I had this year. This year I also tried another type of support that I read about here - a horizontal fence in multiple layers. I don't know if it has a name. I've been calling it the "tomato sandwich". In spring I had brocolli and peas in a 3.5x11 ft, 4" deep raised bed. In May I put in a line of tomatoes on east side edge of the bed. They'd get a few hours of sun in the morning, then were shadowed by buildings and by the peas in afternoon. Consequently, they grew tall and skinny, and were severely retarded compared to my normal plantings. I pulled the pea trellis in mid June and put six rebar in a rectangle around the bed. The tomatoes at that time were a skinny 3' or so, straight up on the east edge. I layed the CRW horizontally, about 2' high, and secured with zipties to the six posts. I added another horizontal layer as they grew, and finally a third layer at the top. They had spread out of course and filled the whole panel by the third one. I did have to put some cut up pool noodle as bumpers on that first layer of CRW so the dogs could see it, but other than that, it has really worked well. The tomatoes are super easy to harvest, have huge area to sprawl with support, and lots of air. It is less conventional, but it definitely works. I would say it is a two person job to construct, but could be done solo with a couple of vice grips/bar clamps to act as ledge to hold the fence up on one side while the other side is adjusted and tied in. Other than cherries, my cages are about done, the florida weave is long done, those single stem poles have some tomatoes that should ripen, but that flat fence is still loaded with tomatoes. I always find it pretty neat to think how many different ways tomatoes can grow. Next year I will still use CRW cages, but will also use these other systems when it suits. Maybe a new support if it sounds good. And I will most assuredly stagger tomatoes and pea trellis in the same space. They complement well in the same space with some overlap at end of spring or mid-summer.

September 30, 2017	#8
Gardeneer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7 Posts: 4,919	i tried string-lean-n-lower this year . It was not a success for two reason: 1- I was not disciplined enough to keep up with it. 2- Then my strings failed me. The worst one was mason line. It became so brittle so soon. So the branches fell and became a sprawlING system. Since I have my stringing system is already in place , I will do a combination of staking and stringing next season. __________________ Gardeneer Happy Gardening !

October 1, 2017	#10
Gardeneer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7 Posts: 4,919	Bill, thanks for the twine info. Yes we do have both Tractor Supply and feed store nearby. Actually this reminds me to go to the feed store and get some seeds , to plant as green manure. Rye ? or wheat ?. I will check the twine too. I think I have seen those twines used to bale pine straw. Like you said , I can use it both for stringing and Florida Weaving. Thanks again. __________________ Gardeneer Happy Gardening !

October 2, 2017	#13
NewWestGardener Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada Posts: 564	Interesting read on your experiments and observations. I planted about 400 hundred determinant paste tomatoes. The vines were short and heavy, they just flopped onto the fabric I laid down at planting. If anything, I will need some long nets on both sides of the plants, along the long rows, just to keep the fruit off the ground. No individual cages, too expensive and too much work. Last edited by NewWestGardener; October 2, 2017 at 06:32 PM.

September 28, 2017	#2
PhilaGardener Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Near Philadelphia, PA Posts: 1,940	Thought it was a personal thread at first Lol!

September 28, 2017	#3
jtjmartin Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2016 Location: Williamsburg VA Zone 7b Posts: 1,110	Hey JR: I've staked and used CRW cages, but this year I moved to mostly single stem lean and lower. Loved it. I'm a good bit more south than you, so some of my vines must be 15' long. None of my caged plants are still alive while most of my single stems are. I think the single stems dry quicker, have better air flow between them and are easier to spray. It looks pretty cool, too! I'll use it again this next year. There are a bunch of threads with good pictures. Here's one: http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...n+lower&page=2 Jeff

September 29, 2017	#5
zipcode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Romania/Germany , z 4-6 Posts: 1,582	Sounds like you have septoria or something like that. Single stem doesn't seem to do much against that (it does against most other things). Morning sun is critical against septoria. I still think there's nothing like one stem, one stake for ease of management, amount of work and production. The problems with this appear if your season is long enough or growth good enough, for them to get too tall. It's just a pain to manage them after that, which is why good strong tall stakes are important (2.5 meters for a normal season should be ok).

October 1, 2017	#11
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	Annual ryegrass is what you want. Worth

October 3, 2017	#14
JRinPA Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: SE PA Posts: 972	I have never tried determinates. It does sound like netting might work to contain sprawling rows like that. I actually think I will regress next year and cut back on this heirloom planting. I love them, taste and color, but they seem to get hit too hard by disease and many of them are lobed to some extent and end up cracking. I hate cutting up a tomato for sauce and throwing away 40% of it. I think I will shift back to more big beef, estiva, and another nice round tomato that I grew for the second year (a trade seed that was supposed to be stupice, but is RL and seems to be true to type so far, I dubbed fauxpice). Instead of ~ 75% heirlooms it will be more like 60/40 in favor of round hybrids. The horizontal fence this year for me has most of my estiva and big beef. It may be it is still going stronger because they are the hybrids, or because of the relatively later growth, or due to greater airflow. One season is not comprehensive. Today I had some tomato sandwiches for lunch from some very chilly mortgage lifters picked fresh from that horizontal fence. Looks like I have another canner load of sauce from that 11'x3.5' bed yet. I definitely do appreciate the options tomatoes allow in order to complement the spring and fall crops. Of course that is just here where I live in SE PA. Tomatoes are a long season crop here, May-Sept. I had brocolli in Apr- July. Peas are Mar-Jun and Aug-...Nov?, depending on frost. My peas from the florida weave shade are starting to come in heavy, now. I watered them twice last week and again this morning, as it has been dry this last few weeks. They aren't really sweet yet but I can hardly wait. Once the cold hits they really sugar up.