Germination problem

[lumierefrere]

Last year no matter what I did I couldn't get Kasachstan Rubin seeds started. I tried everything I knew--little pinch of blue stuff included-- and had no success. I sent to Manfred for more. And those didn't start. This year I bothered everyone for more seeds and I have them from 3 sources. I began the process early to insure I'd have KRs this season. They're not starting again, not from any of the 3 sources.

Approx. 3 weeks ago I did a germination test on some Honey seeds I "saved" from last season. Which means I left them on a coffee filter and forgot them until I found them buried under paperwork the beginning of Feb. No gentle treatment. I put two on a piece of wet paper towel in a sandwich bag and three days later they germinated. Now I have 2 nice Honeys. (very good variety btw)

I manage to start 70-100 plants a year. What's wrong? What can I do better? Did they get crushed/damaged in transit? They look ok. The people who sent them are "experts", far smarter than I am about it so I'm sure it has nothing to do with them.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I have about 3 weeks before I'm entering the time trouble zone.

Barb

[Suze]

Barb, I would try soaking them for about a day in some warm water with a small pinch of fertilizer added, then sow and put the pot in a warm area or use a heat mat.

It's worth a try anyway, and that is what I do for any resows needed.

I have seeds for Kasakhstan Heart I could send you if you want. But, I'm not sure it is the same variety. A little confused about the Kasakhstans, and I've not bothered to figure it out yet. I know there is a Heart, a Rubin, and a Riese - at least. Thinking one or more of these are probably the same var, but could be mistaken.

[lumierefrere]

Thanks, Suze! That's something I haven't tried, I'll soak them first. The Rubins are medium size round and very productive even in a crummy season--which I have plenty of. I try to stay away from larger tomatoes because I'm so support-challenged. Hearts tend to be so heavy they pull my puny cages/stakes down. Thank you for offering the Kasachstan Hearts, I bet they're great.

[dice]

I got some pre-2003 seeds to sprout a few weeks ago. I soaked
them in very mild fish emulsion for 24 hours (just enough fish
emulsion to discolor the water a little, like a few drops from an
eyedropper in a pint of warm water), then made up a 10-1
water-hydrogen_peroxide solution (drugstore strength peroxide)
and dipped the paper towels in that before placing the seeds
in the paper towels and the wet paper towels in plastic baggies.
I set them a couple of feet from a furnace vent for warmth.

It was not a very high percentage, 25-30%, but they sprouted
within 2 weeks. (Some of the others might have sprouted
eventually, but since I already had a few sprouted seeds, I did
not need to wait on the rest of them.) The seedlings were quite
weak, but a little bottom-watering with kelp tea and that same
weak fish emulsion fixed that.

[Tania]

Barb,

The wet paper towel method even without any pre-soaking or adding any fertilizer works wonders for me... unless seeds were crushed in the mail (which DOES happen sometimes when seeds were sent in those little paper bags). Seeds may be crushed and not show any visible damage, but the 'paper towel' method makes the damage quite visible just in a few days.

I sometimes have some sporadic germination failures due to some issues with my seed starting mix - when nothing sprouts. If this happens, I put the same seeds into the wet paper towel and they do sprout eventually, if they were alive. So if you are using soiless mix, try the paper towel method and see what happens.

It is highly unlikely that the seeds from three different sources would 'refuse' to sprout, unless incidentally they were all quite old to start with.

Some varieties do not germinate quickly regardless of the seed age. Ildi is one example. I had some seeds sprouting after 19-20 or even 37 days this spring. Maybe you should just wait and not give up yet.

Did you have other seeds from the same sources to germinate?

Good luck with waking up these babies, I hope you'll succeed!
Tania

P.S. Out of 120 varieties started, so far I had the following failing to germinate (either seeds were too old / not stored properly or crushed);
- Carmello (only had 3 seeds, 2006, so it was probably a random failure, as they did OK last year)
- Joya de Oaxaca (from 2 different sources)
- Druzba (2004 seed, from a trade)
- Gold Ball (crushed, from Carolyn's seed offer this year)

[lumierefrere]

This is all very interesting. I do have fish emulsion so thanks for that suggestion--never heard it before. Will try that after lunch.

Yes, the KRs are not the only ones I have from that source that were buggers to start. I had 3 varieties, 2 total fail 1 started but it was a struggle.

But I have 2 new sources this year, one in America, one in Europe and none are starting.

(I think the first ones attempted are beginning to rot, they're cracking and white is oozing out.)

Age? All 3 sources should be providing seeds from the previous season. These are good people and I'm sure if they were old stock they'd say so. Even still I regularly go back a few years in my own stock and I don't have this kind of trouble.

I guess what I think happens is that when the envelopes are sent on the conveyor belts, there are rollers that go over them. That's why when you wrap in lots of tissue or bubblewrap you're charged more (here) because then the envelop doesn't fit in the normal system. I'm struggling to find an explanation.

You can't imagine how I'm kicking myself for somehow neglecting to save seeds from my own KRs from '07 or giving them away by mistake or misplacing them. I never have trouble starting my own saves. (I think it's the post office!)

Barb

[Tania]

(I think the first ones attempted are beginning to rot, they're cracking and white is oozing out.)

Barb, if this is what you are seeing, I bet the seeds were damaged in the mail. Of course I could be wrong here, that that's been my experience so far.

Tania

[Polar_Lace]

lumierefrere,

Have you ever tried soaking your tomato seeds in household peroxide? The regular kind you buy from most drug stores?

For different reasons I started to do that to some seeds to make sure they get a good start in germinating. I always test them in a paper towel after soaking them in a small bottle cap with regular peroxide. I use dark colored caps so I can see the seeds in there. Just 6 to ten drops are needed in a bottle cap.

After they show signs of germinating, I pluck them with the small amount of paper towel still attached; and sow them in a cell-pack. The small amount of paper towel usually degrades in a few days, and doesn't interfere with the roots at all. This has helped with a lot of older tomato seeds that I have tried.

Just a thought. Trying to Help.

~* Robin

[Gobig_or_Gohome_toms]

I know I have had trouble with the mail sorters before, with NAR last year that someone sent me there remaining TGS supply from that year so the seeds should have been good I think they got crushed. I have been sending all mine wrapped in a paper towel to hopefully help on the crushing.

[dice]

I have sent them unpadded before, but lately I have taken to
taping the seed packets to a piece of the thin plastic foam
padding that electronics and similar items are often wrapped
in when you take them out of shipping containers and paying
the $.20 postage surcharge for an envelope over 1/4" thick.

(I do not think the seed packet in the envelope with the padding
is necessarily over 1/4" thick when pressed flat, but I do not
want a postal clerk to have to guess whether it should be
returned for more postage or not. If the extra $.20 is already
on the envelope, they just send it through, and the foam
padding should absorb the force of any rollers that the
envelope may pass through in the mail sorting system.
Cheap alternative to a bubble envelope.)

I have seen a fair amount of smashed seeds when sprouting
them in paper towels, too. They look like they are about to
sprout any minute, and you can see some of the white inner
part of the seed through the cracked seed coat, but then
as the days pass nothing happens.

[carolyn137]

- Gold Ball (crashed, from Carolyn's seed offer this year)

Tania, I'm sure you must mean crushed, not crashed, and if so it's the first time ever that someone has received crushed seeds from me.

There were more than just Gold Ball seeds in that envelope so did all of them germinate OK for you or was everything crushed? I sure hope not.

And if you want more Gold Ball seeds and any of the others that might have been crushed just let me know by PMing me and giving me your address again. No problem. I'm pretty sure I still have the varieties I sent you in my seed notebook b'c I remember you changed what you wanted at one point.

[lumierefrere]

If Tania and dice agree with the crushed theory then I may have to accept that's what happened. The next 3 weeks may be very frantic as I go through all the seeds trying to find 1 that's ok.

Heavy sigh.

Barb

[salix]

Tania, I too thought "crushed", but then realized they could be either cracked or crushed - so "crashed" works ...

[Suze]

I don't want to turn this into a how to ship seeds post, but when I receive seed packs that are bunched up in the envelope, I cringe. And, more often than not, I can even see some indentations on the seed packs showing that at some point they got some pressure applied. Especially when folks use the little (and thin) plastic envelopes.

A bubble mailer is not necessary, but I do think some effort should be made to secure the seeds so that they stay in place in an envelope and don't end up as a thick mass that could potentially be crushed by the sorter.

I always tape my packs in an even layer to a piece of paper so that they don't bunch up and shift around in the mail. If a boatload, several packs, I use a bubble mailer.

Anyhow, if you're seeing "oozing" or rotting, it makes me think the seeds may have been damaged in transit or are not viable for another reason. Good luck, hope you are able to germ some. As Tania said, don't give up though - some may eventually germ up to a month or even later.

[lumierefrere]

Another maven weighs in! Well, Suze, if you think the oozing points to a crushing at some point, then I'm glum indeed. I'll ditch those and start more in a bag. I threw about 10 into the fish emulsion earlier today.

One of the higher end grocery store chocolates used to come with a piece of cardboard in the package. I saved all of them. That's what I use to protect the seeds I ship around. It's very flat and doesn't increase the postage --never had anyone report a problem with germination.

All I need is 1 Kasachstan Rubin. (Primal Scream)

Update: I just checked the germination test of my own Little Lucky Hearts. 6/6. I believe the lack of germination for the KRs is due to transit.


Barb