Seedlings still alive…. now what?

[tomf]

This is my second year starting from seed. Last year, I managed to kill everything long before it was time to transplant. I did, however, manage to harvest many pounds of green tomatoes the night before our first frost last fall after direct seeding in the garden. I would like to avoid a similar outcome this year, even though they were surprisingly flavorful given the situation.

Here is my setup: About two weeks ago, in a 72-cell flat, I started cherry tomatoes, Bell Stars, San Marzanos and Big Boys. In 3” peat pots, I have started quite a few Brandywines as well. Finally, to test some seed, I have a few cherry tomatoes that were started in 3” peat pots a little more than a month ago. In each case, I am using Ferry Morse soilless organic seed starter. Other than water, nothing has been added to the mix. I am using fluorescent grow lights about 14-16 hours per day, and the whole setup is housed in a rather cool part of my house, with an average temp of 55-65 degrees. I plan on setting them out in the garden in mid-May.

From the attached pictures, I tend to think that everything is looking pretty good right now. All of the true leaves are coming in and they seem to be pretty sturdy. However, I am a bit concerned that the plants that have been growing for a month now do not seem to be getting any thicker, but the true leaves are expanding (somewhat slowly, in my opinion). So I started doing some more research last night and I found an article on Dave’s Garden site that indicated a transplant was definitely needed to help growth, but I got a little confused on the details after that.

My intent, after reading that article, is to transplant everything in the cell flats into 3” peat pots, burying the seedling up to the first set of leaves. Originally, when I was intending to leave them in the flats until transplanting, I was going to cull the tallest plants so they wouldn’t get leggy, but I suppose if I am burying them to promote more root growth, I should use the tallest plants? Does this sound correct so far?

As for the Brandywines that I started in the 3” pots, should I go buy some bigger pots to do the same with? Or, do you think I could get away with pulling them out (very carefully) and simply replanting them deeper in the same pots?

Finally, when transplanting, should I stick with the soilless seed starter or move to a potting soil? Possibly a 50/50 mix of the two? Something else?

Sorry for the long-winded post. I look forward to your replies, and I would welcome any other suggestions you pros have regarding my setup.

Thanks.

[Barbee]

Welcome to Tomatoville!
You have come to the right place to get help. Here's my thoughts on your questions.
Yes, you need to transplant the babies to bigger pots/cups unless you want to feed them a lot. You don't need to go to the expense of the peat pots unless you prefer that. You can use solo cups or styrofoam cups with holes poked in the bottom. Some use 8 oz cups, some use 16 oz cups. The main thing with the seedlings I have found is to keep the lights very close. That builds nice fat plants instead of tall skinny ones.
I sow 2-3 seeds per cell pack section. I do cull plants. I go with the healthiest looking seedling, not necessarily the tallest. I just take scissors or my fingernails and pinch off to the soil line all but the one I want to transplant. Others here tease the seedlings apart and plant them all. Really your choice as both methods work. And I do bury them.
As for what to use, I mix my seed starting mix and potting mix half and half. In my opinion, that makes for a fluffier mix, and not as much resistance for the baby roots to grow thru. I buy the potting soil with some fertilizer in it. Then I don't do any feeding until time to set the plants out. Others prefer plain potting soil, and using 1/2 strength fertilizer to feed with.
The ones in the larger pots, I would gently tap one out and see how the root system looks. If you can see lots of roots, you may want to go to a bigger pot/cup and bury them deep. Or you could leave them for a bit and get the lights down right on them and see how they look in a week or so. My personal opinion is that I'd go ahead and transplant them and bury them. Remove those coty leaves and sink them down to the first set of true leaves. At some point soon, you're most likely going to have to pot up anyway, as you've got a long ways to go to plant out.
Keep the photos coming. I love baby pictures

[Gobig_or_Gohome_toms]

Good advise Barbee I started in a 72 cell flat with 2-3 seeds per cell and re-potted last weekend into 2 1/2 inch 32 cell flat with miricle grow potting mix and did tease appart some of the seedlings with not loses a week later. I also used about a 1/4 strengh dose of miricle grow for tomatoes.

I would say for the ones in the 3" pots you would be able take them out and remove most of the dirt keeping the roots in tact and re-plant deeper in the same pots.

Barbee since you like pics I just went and snapped a couple

Craig

[Barbee]

Nice looking babies there Craig. I love your lights. I've got old nasty looking lights but they still work so I'm still using them. My babies are teenagers now. Maybe I need to take some pics of them?!

[Gobig_or_Gohome_toms]

Yes Barbee would love to see em. I started out with one grow light the first year then bought another last year and then this year I thought I need another one to cover the 2 flats and it was a T5 bulb so I did not get as much extra coverage on the flats but man is that allot brighter of a bulb.

Craig

[tomf]

Barbee & Gobig -

Wow, thanks for the quick response. As I was doing more research, it seemed like I was going to have to do that. It just seemed a little odd since you can buy fully grown tomato plants grown in small cells (although they are fully root bound).

So since you are suggesting to remove the coty leaves when transplanting, I assume it is normal for them to shrivel up and fall off on their own at some point? If you look at the cherry tomato picture, they are just about to fall off. I assumed it was normal, but never having made it this far, I wasn't really sure.

Thanks again.

[Gobig_or_Gohome_toms]

I have never had them fall off I always have to pinch them off when going to final plant out. When re-potting the first time I get them as close to dirt level as possible and then pinch them off when final planting but if they are shriviling up pinch them off and plant as deep to dirt level as the first true leaves.

As a side note when I re-potted mine and had to seperate them I pretty much was left with roots and now soil and them seem to be doing just fine they are pretty tough little guys.

Craig

[Barbee]

I have had them shrivel up and fall off. Usually due to getting too dried out because they are rootbound. If the cot leaves look good and the plant is not leggy, I'll leave them on for transplanting. If they look ooky or the seedling is leggy, I'll pinch them off before transplanting. I will post some pics over in the photo section.

[tomf]

Barbee & Gobig;

I took your advice and got everything repotted over the weekend in a 60/40 mix of seed starter and potting mix. A 50/50 mix seemed thicker than I wanted, but adding a bit more of the seed starter really loosened it up quite a bit. The potting mix had a very mild fertilizer added in (approximately 0.5-0.5-0.5), so I didn't add anything else.

I was a bit skeptical in burying the little guys, but I really think it is going to help. Even my wife noticed that the ones we finished Friday night are noticeably larger this afternoon.

The only issue I had was with the Bell Stars that I had started in the flats. The roots had grown about 3-4 inches through the bottom of the flat tray (see the attached pictures) which made it extremely difficult to get out without damaging the roots. I won't be surprised if a few of them fail to survive, but I fortunately planted plenty of extras. Anybody have any suggestions as to how to get them out of the flats when the roots look like that?

[Polar_Lace]

Tom,

I think what happened is that no one told you to water them well Before transplanting. I see that from your picture the soil is dry. Watering them very well helps them to leave the cells easier. You're supposed to poke them up gently with an index finger out of the cells.

They look long and leggy do to the fact that they probably didn't get a close enough strong light.

That's ok since you just transplanted them; they will develop roots along the stem now.

Make sure you get the lights down lower on top of the plants. If you have some seaweed (kelp) plant food; then make a very mild solution 1 teaspoon to a quart of water and feed with that. This will help you avoid the transplant shock, that you stated above. "Some are not doing so well."

Of course, don't drown the little babies.

~* Robin

[jcmorse33]

I would not worry much if you lose a few roots. Tomatoes are very hardy plants. I've had seedlings that have gotten snapped off above the soil line which I have stuck into a moist cup of potting mix, trimmed off a few of their leaves to reduce respiration and water loss, and had them go on to develop new roots and be some of my most productive plants of the year. I've got an Ed's Millenium which this happened to this year when it was 8 inches tall which I'm currently nursing back to health under lights in the basement. Its doing just fine and should be ready to harden off again in another week or two.

--Justin

[tomf]

I just wanted to give a quick update and thank all of you that offered me some guidance. Surprisingly, many of my seedlings actually survived to make it to the garden this year, but not without some serious trepidation.

After discovering (thanks to you all) what I was doing wrong, transplanting the tomatoes went a lot easier. It's amazing what a little moisture can do for the situation. Also, before moving them outside, they were getting a bit leggy even though they were growing right under my lights.

I experienced a significant setback last week when I was trying to harden them off for the garden. I thought it was going very well, and they were just about ready to do their first night on the back porch when the high temps and bright sunshine hit. Although they had been out in the direct sun a bit and were doing fine, the weather last week was too much for them and many of the tomatoes got a pretty severe sunburn in a few hours one afternoon. I lost about 90% of my paste tomatoes (Bellstar), but fortunately all of the other plants have pulled through (even thought they looked pretty bad for a couple days). Thus, many of the Bellstars have been replaced by some San Marzanos and Romas.

When I went to pick up the replacements at the regional market, I had room for one more indeterminate on the trellis. I was looking to try a Black Krim, but they were all sold out. A gentleman recommended a Cherokee Purple which I purchased (after seeing the rave reviews here) and he gave me a damaged Carbon Black tomato because he was out of the Krims. The main stem of the Carbon was pinched off, but several suckers were already forming (and it is doing great after just a few days in the garden). With that kind of service, he will definitely be getting my business in the future. Thus, with two new plants to try and only room for one, one of the big boys found its way to the compost pile.

Anyway, enough rambling... I have attached some pics of my tiny garden getting ready to take off (minus a couple trellises as you can see, not to mention a bit of a mess in the yard), complete with the first pea blossoms of the year, the recovereing carbon, my banana peppers, eggplant and broccoli which I started from seed (successfully!!) and a roma in a 2.5 gallon pot. I have never attempted the pot method before, so I'm hoping that the pot is big enough.

Thanks again for all of your help.

[veggie babe]

great pictures, good, healthy looking plants,
hope you have a great harvest.

neva