blossom end rot

bcbf · November 1, 2009

This is first year in many years that i have raised a garden. Seemed to have caught the bug when i discovered some videos about raised beds on youtube. For the most part things were growing along quite well until fruit from the tomatoes, peppers, and zucchini were beginning to ripen. All three were infected with BER and remained infected through out the year to some extent. Very frustrating, don't remember this from past years.
I suspect that the weather and possibly the soil were the main cause of my frustration. Seemed like every time i watered the garden it would rain a couple of inches the next day! I also made my own mixture of soil for the raised beds out of rotted cow manure and topsoil. More than likely much to rich.
As i would like to minimize BER next year, and have no control of the weather. I would like your thoughts on these areas that i could control.

1. Fertility of soil- Need to soil test this year to find out if there is still excess nitrogen in the soil or a lack of calcium. What could i do if there is still excess nitrogen?

2. pruning- Will pruning tomatoes reduce the incidence of BER?

3. mulching, plastic or fabric- Which would be better at evening out soil moisture levels?

4. varieties- Are there any varieties of paste tomatoes that are less susceptible to BER than others? I grew all determinates this year, are indeterminates more or less susceptible?

5. plant spacing- In 4' by 8' raised beds, I grew 8 tomato plants this year (way to close together). Would giving them more soil to grow in reduce BER?

Hopefully, i will be able to correct a few things and wont have to pitch as many over the fence next year. Maybe Mother Nature will put her best foot forward next year too.

Thanks for any responses.

b54red · November 2, 2009

I did not have a single tomato with BER this year or last and don't know why. It may be the mushroom compost which has a lot of gypsum in it that I put in for the last 3 years. The only trouble is it got my soil too alkaline.
I remember a few years back, when I had BER early, that side dressing with Calcium Carbonate seemed to stop it in its tracks about a week after using it. Finding it was the only trouble; I had to get a local garden supply to special order it. Sometimes I have found it in the racks labeled as ground marble dust or ground limestone. It also got rid of the bitter taste in cucs.
I have been using a lot of cottonseed meal the past year and a half to bring down the alkalinity and my toms still don't have any BER but they grew bigger and were more productive. Don't know if this helps any but from what I've been told low calcium is one of the main causes of BER.

icelord · November 2, 2009

You can buy cheap soil test kits at homedepot or most garden supply stores, that would be the first thing, next pruning will not have any effect on BER. Spacing is a choice, but I would not go less than 24 inches. And this always works for me, I go to the dollar store and buy a big jar of calcium pills, crush up 2 per plant and sprinkle it around the roots and then moisten the soil, not soak. You can also use Tums with calcium.
Oyster shell and gypsum also work fine but I have a hard time getting them.

Icelord

FILMNET · November 2, 2009

This worked great on my Roma plants which were in the ground and containers both got BER this year, Gardener lime 1 cup in 1 gal water on the leaves and in the dirt one time only. I had to do this 2 times last year, it stop it with the new tomatoes

**carolyn137** · November 2, 2009

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...lossom+end+rot

The above is a thread on BER that was posted here in August and I do feel it has the correct information. Film, I see you were a part of that thread as well.

And that's that BER is not prevented by Ca++ addition to the soil as I think I pointed out in that thread. There's been lots of new research about BER in the last 20 years or so b'c it's a huge problem for the veggie industry b'c it affects not just tomatoes but also peppers, squash, cauliflower, etc.

Research has shown that there's No problem with Ca++ uptake through the roots with two major exceptions which I pointed out in that thread above. Rather, the problem is one of maldistribution within the plant.

And stresses to a plant can result in BER fruits and variety X can have BER one season and not the next. perhaps the two most important stresses are uneven delivery of water and growing in too rich soil or overfertilizing since that induces rapid plant growth which is a stress.

Well, here I am typing more than I expected to, but I do think it might be helpful to read the link I posted above.

Most websites that discuss BER have updated their information about the causes but there are still those websites that hang on to the older information about soil Ca++ levels being important, which they are only for the two very RARE situations I mentioned in that post.

Many folks add this ot that and then say it prevented BER when in fact as plants get more mature they're better able to handle the many stresses that can induce it so it goes away with time. So it's usually just the first fruits that are affected.

Posted in this thread:
1. Fertility of soil- Need to soil test this year to find out if there is still excess nitrogen in the soil or a lack of calcium. What could i do if there is still excess nitrogen?

Nothiing to be done if XS N and lack of Ca++ is not the issue.

2. pruning- Will pruning tomatoes reduce the incidence of BER?

No.
3. mulching, plastic or fabric- Which would be better at evening out soil moisture levels?

Follks have used different mulches including straw, fabric, pleastic, etc.

4. varieties- Are there any varieties of paste tomatoes that are less susceptible to BER than others? I grew all determinates this year, are indeterminates more or less susceptible?

Paste tomatoes ARE more susceptible to BER but it's usually only the first fruits. I haven't seen that much BEr with the paste varieties Heidi, Mama Leone, Sarnowski Polish Plum and a few others, but anyones milage may vary on that accord. I'm one who preferred to not use paste varieties for sauces, etc., or at least use ALL paste tomatoes for sauces, etc.

I don't think there';s any difference in indet vs det varieties re BER b'c plant habit is not the problem.

5. plant spacing- In 4' by 8' raised beds, I grew 8 tomato plants this year (way to close together). Would giving them more soil to grow in reduce BER?

I think that's pretty close but I also don't think that spacing them out to give themn more soil would help with BER but well might help with general growth and yield. But it also depends on how you were growing them as in caged, staked, etc.

Hope that helps.

And if the huge US vegetable industry hasn't found a reliable way to either prevent or control BER on a variety of crops I don't think that we home growers can do much better. There's at least one tomato hybridizer I know who was working on BER in terms of trying to find out the difference in physiology between paste varieties and others re BER but I've not heard anything more about that since the early 90's.

travis · November 2, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by b54red

I did not have a single tomato with BER this year or last and don't know why. It may be the mushroom compost which has a lot of gypsum in it that I put in for the last 3 years. The only trouble is it got my soil too alkaline.

I don't think gypsum (calcium sulfate) raises pH of soil except in high acid soils of the Southwest where then the rise in pH is due to a complex reaction with soluable aluminum. I think in soils common to Alabama and most Eastern soils this is not the case. Anyway, that's what the extension services will tell you.

b54red · November 2, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by travis

I don't think gypsum (calcium sulfate) raises pH of soil except in high acid soils of the Southwest where then the rise in pH is due to a complex reaction with soluable aluminum. I think in soils common to Alabama and most Eastern soils this is not the case. Anyway, that's what the extension services will tell you.

I have been gardening in the same location for over 30 years and have added lime per recommendations of extension service after soil tests for years and my soil remained fairly acid with basically the same liming recommendations every few years.
Then I started adding the mushroom compost which was made up of chicken manure, hay and gypsum. I was buying it by the truckload and as a result put several tons on my small garden. It was after this that my alkaline level showed a significant rise. I have brought it back down a little by not adding anymore this year and using a lot of cottonseed meal which is acidic. Some of the beds, the most heavily amended with mushroom compost, showed the highest ph levels. Maybe its not the gypsum in the mushroom compost because I'm certainly no chemist. I have a close friend who lives a couple of miles away and he uses the same source for mushroom compost and has had the same thing happen to his garden and he is a chemist. He has kept detailed records of his ph results and his garden was slightly acidic until the heavy amending with the MC. He is even considering using sulfur to bring his ph down a little.

b54red · November 2, 2009

Carolyn, thanks for the correction. I was just going by my experience and what I have heard from other gardeners over the years. That's one of the things that is great about this forum; you can learn something new almost everyday reading it.
Being superstitious if BER ever appears again I will probably still add calcium just in case. LOL

icelord · November 2, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by b54red

Carolyn, thanks for the correction. I was just going by my experience and what I have heard from other gardeners over the years. That's one of the things that is great about this forum; you can learn something new almost everyday reading it.
Being superstitious if BER ever appears again I will probably still add calcium just in case. LOL

Always works for me!!

The Garden Witchdoctor!!!!

botanikk · January 1, 2010

I've had problems with BER with tomatoes in containers, but I also discovered this summer that my tap water is very alkaline...over 8! Could this be the culprit? I know that wet-dry cycles could also cause this...but how important is pH? With sensitive plants (like Erica and Calluna, I have to acidify my water...should I do this for the tomatoes too?

huntsman · January 2, 2010

One thing I have missed...

Do we remove tomatoes that are affected with BER?

Can they be eaten?

Blueaussi · January 2, 2010

The undamaged part of the tomato or pepper can be eaten if opportunistic fungi or bacteria don't rot it before it ripens. That being said, about the only time I leave fruit with BER on the plant is when it's the first fruit of the season and I'm seriously jonesin' for a fresh tomato or pepper fix.

huntsman · January 2, 2010

Spoken like a true addict, Blue! Heh heh!

TZ-OH6 · January 2, 2010

Most peoples' city tap water is/should be around pH8. The water companies keep it that high so that it doesn't corrode pipes. It shouldn't be a problem for tomatoes. Most water sensitive plants need low TDS water (total dissolved solids), meaning purified-reverse osmosis water, rather than pH adjustment from adding more chemicals/acids. SMany times fertilizer solutions from crystaline fertilizers are too acidic and must have "pH Up" chemicals added to them, especially if they are being used for container plants in areas where the tap water is not hard enough.

dice · January 5, 2010

You can look on this page for a list of nutrients
that in excess would be antagonistic to calcium
uptake or utilization (which could create a calcium
deficiency from the plant's point of view even in
a soil with plenty of calcium):

http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm

November 1, 2009	#1
bcbf Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: north dakota Posts: 12	blossom end rot This is first year in many years that i have raised a garden. Seemed to have caught the bug when i discovered some videos about raised beds on youtube. For the most part things were growing along quite well until fruit from the tomatoes, peppers, and zucchini were beginning to ripen. All three were infected with BER and remained infected through out the year to some extent. Very frustrating, don't remember this from past years. I suspect that the weather and possibly the soil were the main cause of my frustration. Seemed like every time i watered the garden it would rain a couple of inches the next day! I also made my own mixture of soil for the raised beds out of rotted cow manure and topsoil. More than likely much to rich. As i would like to minimize BER next year, and have no control of the weather. I would like your thoughts on these areas that i could control. 1. Fertility of soil- Need to soil test this year to find out if there is still excess nitrogen in the soil or a lack of calcium. What could i do if there is still excess nitrogen? 2. pruning- Will pruning tomatoes reduce the incidence of BER? 3. mulching, plastic or fabric- Which would be better at evening out soil moisture levels? 4. varieties- Are there any varieties of paste tomatoes that are less susceptible to BER than others? I grew all determinates this year, are indeterminates more or less susceptible? 5. plant spacing- In 4' by 8' raised beds, I grew 8 tomato plants this year (way to close together). Would giving them more soil to grow in reduce BER? Hopefully, i will be able to correct a few things and wont have to pitch as many over the fence next year. Maybe Mother Nature will put her best foot forward next year too. Thanks for any responses.

November 2, 2009	#5
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...lossom+end+rot The above is a thread on BER that was posted here in August and I do feel it has the correct information. Film, I see you were a part of that thread as well. And that's that BER is not prevented by Ca++ addition to the soil as I think I pointed out in that thread. There's been lots of new research about BER in the last 20 years or so b'c it's a huge problem for the veggie industry b'c it affects not just tomatoes but also peppers, squash, cauliflower, etc. Research has shown that there's No problem with Ca++ uptake through the roots with two major exceptions which I pointed out in that thread above. Rather, the problem is one of maldistribution within the plant. And stresses to a plant can result in BER fruits and variety X can have BER one season and not the next. perhaps the two most important stresses are uneven delivery of water and growing in too rich soil or overfertilizing since that induces rapid plant growth which is a stress. Well, here I am typing more than I expected to, but I do think it might be helpful to read the link I posted above. Most websites that discuss BER have updated their information about the causes but there are still those websites that hang on to the older information about soil Ca++ levels being important, which they are only for the two very RARE situations I mentioned in that post. Many folks add this ot that and then say it prevented BER when in fact as plants get more mature they're better able to handle the many stresses that can induce it so it goes away with time. So it's usually just the first fruits that are affected. Posted in this thread: 1. Fertility of soil- Need to soil test this year to find out if there is still excess nitrogen in the soil or a lack of calcium. What could i do if there is still excess nitrogen? Nothiing to be done if XS N and lack of Ca++ is not the issue. 2. pruning- Will pruning tomatoes reduce the incidence of BER? No. 3. mulching, plastic or fabric- Which would be better at evening out soil moisture levels? Follks have used different mulches including straw, fabric, pleastic, etc. 4. varieties- Are there any varieties of paste tomatoes that are less susceptible to BER than others? I grew all determinates this year, are indeterminates more or less susceptible? Paste tomatoes ARE more susceptible to BER but it's usually only the first fruits. I haven't seen that much BEr with the paste varieties Heidi, Mama Leone, Sarnowski Polish Plum and a few others, but anyones milage may vary on that accord. I'm one who preferred to not use paste varieties for sauces, etc., or at least use ALL paste tomatoes for sauces, etc. I don't think there';s any difference in indet vs det varieties re BER b'c plant habit is not the problem. 5. plant spacing- In 4' by 8' raised beds, I grew 8 tomato plants this year (way to close together). Would giving them more soil to grow in reduce BER? I think that's pretty close but I also don't think that spacing them out to give themn more soil would help with BER but well might help with general growth and yield. But it also depends on how you were growing them as in caged, staked, etc. Hope that helps. And if the huge US vegetable industry hasn't found a reliable way to either prevent or control BER on a variety of crops I don't think that we home growers can do much better. There's at least one tomato hybridizer I know who was working on BER in terms of trying to find out the difference in physiology between paste varieties and others re BER but I've not heard anything more about that since the early 90's. __________________ Carolyn

January 5, 2010	#15
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	You can look on this page for a list of nutrients that in excess would be antagonistic to calcium uptake or utilization (which could create a calcium deficiency from the plant's point of view even in a soil with plenty of calcium): http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm __________________ -- alias

November 2, 2009	#2
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	I did not have a single tomato with BER this year or last and don't know why. It may be the mushroom compost which has a lot of gypsum in it that I put in for the last 3 years. The only trouble is it got my soil too alkaline. I remember a few years back, when I had BER early, that side dressing with Calcium Carbonate seemed to stop it in its tracks about a week after using it. Finding it was the only trouble; I had to get a local garden supply to special order it. Sometimes I have found it in the racks labeled as ground marble dust or ground limestone. It also got rid of the bitter taste in cucs. I have been using a lot of cottonseed meal the past year and a half to bring down the alkalinity and my toms still don't have any BER but they grew bigger and were more productive. Don't know if this helps any but from what I've been told low calcium is one of the main causes of BER.

November 2, 2009	#3
icelord Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: 23463 copemish Mi 49625 Posts: 180	You can buy cheap soil test kits at homedepot or most garden supply stores, that would be the first thing, next pruning will not have any effect on BER. Spacing is a choice, but I would not go less than 24 inches. And this always works for me, I go to the dollar store and buy a big jar of calcium pills, crush up 2 per plant and sprinkle it around the roots and then moisten the soil, not soak. You can also use Tums with calcium. Oyster shell and gypsum also work fine but I have a hard time getting them. Icelord

November 2, 2009	#4
FILMNET Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: North Charleston,South Carolina, USA Posts: 1,803	This worked great on my Roma plants which were in the ground and containers both got BER this year, Gardener lime 1 cup in 1 gal water on the leaves and in the dirt one time only. I had to do this 2 times last year, it stop it with the new tomatoes

January 1, 2010	#10
botanikk Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sassari, Sardinia, Italy Posts: 15	I've had problems with BER with tomatoes in containers, but I also discovered this summer that my tap water is very alkaline...over 8! Could this be the culprit? I know that wet-dry cycles could also cause this...but how important is pH? With sensitive plants (like Erica and Calluna, I have to acidify my water...should I do this for the tomatoes too?

January 2, 2010	#11
huntsman Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa - GrowZone 9 Posts: 595	One thing I have missed... Do we remove tomatoes that are affected with BER? Can they be eaten?

January 2, 2010	#12
Blueaussi Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Carolina Zone 8a Posts: 1,205	The undamaged part of the tomato or pepper can be eaten if opportunistic fungi or bacteria don't rot it before it ripens. That being said, about the only time I leave fruit with BER on the plant is when it's the first fruit of the season and I'm seriously jonesin' for a fresh tomato or pepper fix.

January 2, 2010	#14
TZ-OH6 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Mid-Ohio Posts: 848	Most peoples' city tap water is/should be around pH8. The water companies keep it that high so that it doesn't corrode pipes. It shouldn't be a problem for tomatoes. Most water sensitive plants need low TDS water (total dissolved solids), meaning purified-reverse osmosis water, rather than pH adjustment from adding more chemicals/acids. SMany times fertilizer solutions from crystaline fertilizers are too acidic and must have "pH Up" chemicals added to them, especially if they are being used for container plants in areas where the tap water is not hard enough.