Indeterminate Bush Pruning (Rouge De Marmande)

Aussiemark · November 26, 2009

I am growing Rouge De Marmande and Burke's Italian (Austrian branded name) this year. I believed that all the tomatoes I was growing are indeterminate vine plants. I now discover, after some head scratching and googling, that these two are considered indeterminate bush tomatoes.

I didn't know this when I went to prune them, and they sure looked like bush tomatoes, multiple strong stems at the base and the plants were bushy and upright. I cut the plants back to one or two main stems and tied them up (like I would a normal vine type), but I knew something was not right.

So how do people prune/train these? With my vines I keep them to one main stem early on, to about 12-16 inches off the ground, and then I let them grow as they like and just keep tying up, with a little trimming here and there. I expect this may not be the right treatment for these Indeterminate Bush types?

Any insight would be helpful.

Thanks

Mark

b54red · November 27, 2009

I started pruning my determinate tomatoes this year along with some I didn't prune and was pleasantly surprised. The ones I didn't prune made one big crop then a mess of smaller tomatoes that were very slow to ripen and the vine died quickly. The ones I pruned made fewer early tomatoes, but made close to the same number but over a much longer time and the average size of the fruit was bigger and they ripened faster. I didn't prune the same as an indeterminate. I pruned the determinates so that they were more open in the middle to allow more light and air flow, but otherwise left them to grow.
I think the reason my pruned did so much better was that the pruning delayed the progression of disease by allowing more sunlight and air to reach the leaves.

Aussiemark · November 27, 2009

Thanks b54red,

The tomatoes I am talking about are actually part of a small group of what they to call "Indeterminate Bush".

I didn't even know this existed. I thought bush was determinate and vine was indeterminate, but these are indeterminate bush (bush growing to 2.5 meters require staking)

Which is what has stumped me.

Mark

RJW · November 27, 2009

I've grown a few indeterminate bush plants over the past couple seasons, one Bush Goliath and several Husky Cherry Reds. I wouldn't prune them at all. Just cage them in and let them go. I tried lightly pruning and staking the Bush Goliath. It was about as close as I have been to having a wrestling match with a tomato plant. It did not like being tied up and was strong enough to tackle my stake. They don't require tall cages, there upright habit is easily encouraged beyond the top of a 3 or 4 foot cage, and they will probably produce more fruit without being pruned; especially the cherry plant that I grew. Definitely no need to prune a Husky Cherry, and probably no need to prun any indeterminate bush plant.

Aussiemark · November 27, 2009

RJW,

Thanks for the feedback, that was kinda what I was thinking (after I realised they were indeterminate bush and had already pruned them)

Do you find these varieties to have more vigour than normal vines? my plants were thick fleshy beasts with more size and flowers than than my normal vines.

How do you rate the flavour of the two you have just mentioned?

Thanks

Mark

RJW · November 27, 2009

I would agree with above average vigor, but not necessarily the most vigorous plants in the garden. Both were solid producers that withstood desert conditions admirably, and I do recommend both varieties for taste. I was pleasantly surprised by Bush Goliath a couple years ago, and just about everyone around here enjoyed the Husky Cherries this past season. I liked the plant enough to air layer a couple cuttings to overwinter.

b54red · November 28, 2009

I grew Celebrity again this past season and it is also considered a semi-determinate. I pruned them this year more than I had in the past and they produced bigger fruit than in the past and survived disease better. I pruned them to 2 or 3 main stems. As a matter of fact for the previous 4 years I had terrible luck with disease killing off this variety even though it is supposed to be very disease tolerant.

Wi-sunflower · November 29, 2009

Many Bush tomatoes like the Husky series are what is called ISI or Indeterminate Short Internode.

That's what gives them the stocky look but also keeps them growing all season rather than pooping out after just a short time as determinates do.

I've grown all the Husky series and several other varieties with Bush in the name and they all do quite well without any pruning. They do need some support tho as they can get a fairly heavy fruit set on them at times. I've also had them in 3-5 gallon pots in an open greenhouse and even with a re-bar stake to tie then up the pots would fall over if they dried out. Finally we drove a re-bar thru the pot into the ground and they did OK. I also ended up putting a drip line on them with a timer that watered them for 5 minutes every 4 hours and that kept them going til we couldn't protect them from frost any more.

Maybe not the greatest tasting tomatoes, but good if you don't have anything else.

The Huskys and Bush varieties are also good plant sellers for me where I have students and retirees that don't have garden space any more.

Carol

November 26, 2009	#1
Aussiemark Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 49	Indeterminate Bush Pruning (Rouge De Marmande) I am growing Rouge De Marmande and Burke's Italian (Austrian branded name) this year. I believed that all the tomatoes I was growing are indeterminate vine plants. I now discover, after some head scratching and googling, that these two are considered indeterminate bush tomatoes. I didn't know this when I went to prune them, and they sure looked like bush tomatoes, multiple strong stems at the base and the plants were bushy and upright. I cut the plants back to one or two main stems and tied them up (like I would a normal vine type), but I knew something was not right. So how do people prune/train these? With my vines I keep them to one main stem early on, to about 12-16 inches off the ground, and then I let them grow as they like and just keep tying up, with a little trimming here and there. I expect this may not be the right treatment for these Indeterminate Bush types? Any insight would be helpful. Thanks Mark

November 27, 2009	#2
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	I started pruning my determinate tomatoes this year along with some I didn't prune and was pleasantly surprised. The ones I didn't prune made one big crop then a mess of smaller tomatoes that were very slow to ripen and the vine died quickly. The ones I pruned made fewer early tomatoes, but made close to the same number but over a much longer time and the average size of the fruit was bigger and they ripened faster. I didn't prune the same as an indeterminate. I pruned the determinates so that they were more open in the middle to allow more light and air flow, but otherwise left them to grow. I think the reason my pruned did so much better was that the pruning delayed the progression of disease by allowing more sunlight and air to reach the leaves.

November 27, 2009	#4
RJW Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: California desert Posts: 31	I've grown a few indeterminate bush plants over the past couple seasons, one Bush Goliath and several Husky Cherry Reds. I wouldn't prune them at all. Just cage them in and let them go. I tried lightly pruning and staking the Bush Goliath. It was about as close as I have been to having a wrestling match with a tomato plant. It did not like being tied up and was strong enough to tackle my stake. They don't require tall cages, there upright habit is easily encouraged beyond the top of a 3 or 4 foot cage, and they will probably produce more fruit without being pruned; especially the cherry plant that I grew. Definitely no need to prune a Husky Cherry, and probably no need to prun any indeterminate bush plant.

November 28, 2009	#7
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	I grew Celebrity again this past season and it is also considered a semi-determinate. I pruned them this year more than I had in the past and they produced bigger fruit than in the past and survived disease better. I pruned them to 2 or 3 main stems. As a matter of fact for the previous 4 years I had terrible luck with disease killing off this variety even though it is supposed to be very disease tolerant.

November 29, 2009	#8
Wi-sunflower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 2,591	Many Bush tomatoes like the Husky series are what is called ISI or Indeterminate Short Internode. That's what gives them the stocky look but also keeps them growing all season rather than pooping out after just a short time as determinates do. I've grown all the Husky series and several other varieties with Bush in the name and they all do quite well without any pruning. They do need some support tho as they can get a fairly heavy fruit set on them at times. I've also had them in 3-5 gallon pots in an open greenhouse and even with a re-bar stake to tie then up the pots would fall over if they dried out. Finally we drove a re-bar thru the pot into the ground and they did OK. I also ended up putting a drip line on them with a timer that watered them for 5 minutes every 4 hours and that kept them going til we couldn't protect them from frost any more. Maybe not the greatest tasting tomatoes, but good if you don't have anything else. The Huskys and Bush varieties are also good plant sellers for me where I have students and retirees that don't have garden space any more. Carol