We have huge Home Depot vats for our tomato plants

Elliot · November 27, 2009

We used Miracle grow moisture control soil and spent a lot on the soil, fertilizer etc. Finanacially it would be burden to empty every vat and change the soild entirely. How much new soil do you think I can get away with changing next year? (example, 1/3 off the top, 1/2) etc)

Elliot

Zana · November 27, 2009

I empty about half of my large containers (about 30"diameter minimum and about 24" to 30" deep) into a large wheel barrel. I then add the equivalent of 1/4 of the same container each of a soilless mix and home-made compost. Mix it all up and then store it over the winter in large garbage cans with wheels (rubbermaid makes some good size ones) The idea is to make sure that stuff from the containers is not too moist when you do this, or the weight will be more than you want for moving them. Sometimes I add perlite and vermiculite instead of soil-less mix...it depends on what the forecasts are for that year.

So if I've used the "soil" for more than 3 years, its usually part from year 1, part from year 2 and part from year 3 plus the yearly additions of "new" stuff. Considering i normally add more containers on an annual basis, and garbage cans, I end up with enough for the next year. I try to do the mixing in the fall and let them sit in the garbage cans over the winter to "cook", as these get set out in the backyard along the fence catching a western exposure. The advantage is that the "soil" heats up in the sun before I need it come spring - so is warmer than any ground beds. And if I feel really energetic I might actually bring them into the garage a couple of weeks before I plan on planting/ filling the containers, to further warm up.

I have 20 of those plastic containers that have the rope handles that are about 30" across. At least 75 5-gal pails. By doing this scenario...and adding containers annually, I only had to buy about the equivalent of 4 to 5 bags of soil-less mix/container mix annually at most...and have reached a point where I have 12 of the garbage cans full right now for the winter. I didn't use the soil this year, (I was not allowed to turn the patio into a jungle this year as the house was listed for sale - it didn't sell so I may be dealing with the same next year...don't know at this point.) but in 2008 I had over 140 containers. An increase of about 30 5-gal pails over the previous year....so not that much in the grand scheme of things in terms of "soil".

Hope this makes sense...but that's what I do.

PS I do empty all of them annually....so that everything can be cleaned. Also so that the larger containers that are the heavy plastic that can withstand the cold, can be stacked upside down outside over the winter.

ContainerTed · November 28, 2009

My way is very similar to Zana's.

I think the key thing to think about when "replacing" mix is just how much does it COMPACT. Heavily compacted growing medium retards/slows expansion of the roots and that is bad for getting healthy plants. So, I recommend you judge your current used mix by comparing it to some new mix. You might also consider amending with something like Perlite. Ami did a great pictorial on his root systems in a thread here at Tomatoville.

Each grower needs to deal with the environment they are given. I've grown both in the ground and in container over the last 55+ years and have decided that now the potting mixes and fertilizer/soil amendments available are far better than growing in the ground and give me absolute control over the growing medium. So, even if I could have my dream 5 acre tomato ranch, I would still grow in containers - lots of containers. I mean, just think of all the soil-borne diseases that you eliminate.

I have a mixture of 18 gallon and smaller pots, 5 gallon buckets, and several sizes of nursery pots. I don't leave the pots filled over the winter. All the containers are emptied into a large pile on a large tarp and things like slow release fertilizer, dolomite lime, and finely mulched leaves and maybe some grass clippings are added to enrich and to help "Uncompact" its consistancy. This is allowed to cook a bit over the winter. I don't add table scraps. This can give you too many stray seeds and such. I think its important to add some lime to the pile in the fall. It takes a lot of time for the calcium to break down enough to be used by the tomato plants and this gives a few month's time for that to happen.

The moisture content of the pile is checked a few times during the winter and I turn the material over at least once a month. In the spring, the tarp comes off and the pile is stirred and allowed to air out for a few days (sheltered from rain). Then, I mix it with newly purchased mix for the new season's pots (which have been cleaned and rinsed with a light chlorine bleach solution just before potting up). My formula is approx ~60% old mix, ~30% new mix, and ~10% Black Kow composted manure, some more dolomite lime, and some more slow release fertilizer - usually 10-10-10.

With a very small finite space to use, adding new mix each year means a lot of growing medium. I give away a lot of plants each year to friends and neighbors or to charity organizations. This past year I sent out more than 300 seedlings in 9 oz drink cups. That took a lot of mix. I also give plants in larger containers to seniors here in my community. When my initial plant-out and the give-aways are done, any remaining mix from last year is usually added to the flower beds.

BTW, I do have earthworms in my tarp pile. I'm not sure how they got there, but they seem to like the neighborhood. It seems like I find more and more each year.

And one more thing - after the growing season, check with the businesses that stock the professional mixes - Home Depot, Lowes, Kmart, Walmart, Ace Hardware, etc. Many will have sales on remaining stock for 50% off or more. Also, during the spring, look for busted bags. These are usually half off or better. A busted bag might be that a fork lift barely ripped the plastic bag. Even if you only get one bag at a time, a bag here and another there and pretty soon you have what you need.

Hope this helps.

Ted

b54red · November 28, 2009

I keep reading about less diseases with container grown tomatoes and may try a few this year because I live in an area rife with tomato diseases. I also live in an area that is famous for the taste of locally grown tomatoes and I have to admit I'd rather fight disease and have better tasting tomatoes. I'll compare the taste of a couple of the same varieties grown both ways and judge the results in productivity, taste and disease tolerance.

ContainerTed · November 28, 2009

B54 - to be sure you're clear, we're talking "soil borne diseases" are lessened greatly by using containers. But containers that are placed with their drainage holes in contact with the indigenous soil are not fully protected from these soil borne maladies. My containers are not allowed to touch the ground because of the possibility of them "wicking" up some of the bad stuff.

Foliage diseases like fusarium and blight are not deterred and antifungal sprays will still be necessary.

Ted

Elliot · November 29, 2009

Don't bet on avoiding tomato diseases by using containers. A great deal of the diseases are airborne and you never know if the soil you buy for the containers was made with mulch from infected products. I learned all of this the hard way. What I do is buy plants that that are vnf resistant. Next season however I will gravitate toward plants that are also late blight reistant.

Elliot

LI, New York

Elliot · November 29, 2009

"Even if you only get one bag at a time, a bag here and another there and pretty soon you have what you need."

Funny that you mentioned this. When I first started buying miracle grow and manure compost soils from home depot, I use to pay them to deliver them. I uise to buy like 30 bags. It cost me a deliver fee. They use to drop the entire carriage on the driveway and I had to hoist the bags off of the floor endangering my health. Last year I used your idea. I use to buy one or two bags at a time. The people at Home depot would put in the trunk of my car. I would then wiggle each bag out on to a wheel or luggage carrier and take to the appropriate place in the garden. When this was used up, I would go back to home depot for more. I am not the type of gardener that can make my own mulch or really work with compounding my own soils. What I do is buy miracle grow soils, cow manure mulch and a product they sell in my local home depot called ultra light top soil. Its very easy to transport.

What I need to determine, in this economy, is how little I have to change for next Spring.

Elliot

LI, New York

chalstonsc · November 30, 2009

There are plenty of diseases where I live and as Containerted above does, I do not let my containers touch the ground because I learned the hard way one year.

Question I have is: airborne diseases are common and there is rarely a plant I have that doesn't come down with something before the end of the season, so is it safe to use mix that has had a plant growing in it that has becomes diseased with a airborne disease?

The advice I've read before is that mix with a diseased plant in it should not be used again....is that caution only for soilborne diseases, or also for airborne diseases?

Thanks.

November 27, 2009	#1
Elliot Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Hicksville, New York Posts: 503	We have huge Home Depot vats for our tomato plants We used Miracle grow moisture control soil and spent a lot on the soil, fertilizer etc. Finanacially it would be burden to empty every vat and change the soild entirely. How much new soil do you think I can get away with changing next year? (example, 1/3 off the top, 1/2) etc) Elliot

November 28, 2009	#3
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	My way is very similar to Zana's. I think the key thing to think about when "replacing" mix is just how much does it COMPACT. Heavily compacted growing medium retards/slows expansion of the roots and that is bad for getting healthy plants. So, I recommend you judge your current used mix by comparing it to some new mix. You might also consider amending with something like Perlite. Ami did a great pictorial on his root systems in a thread here at Tomatoville. Each grower needs to deal with the environment they are given. I've grown both in the ground and in container over the last 55+ years and have decided that now the potting mixes and fertilizer/soil amendments available are far better than growing in the ground and give me absolute control over the growing medium. So, even if I could have my dream 5 acre tomato ranch, I would still grow in containers - lots of containers. I mean, just think of all the soil-borne diseases that you eliminate. I have a mixture of 18 gallon and smaller pots, 5 gallon buckets, and several sizes of nursery pots. I don't leave the pots filled over the winter. All the containers are emptied into a large pile on a large tarp and things like slow release fertilizer, dolomite lime, and finely mulched leaves and maybe some grass clippings are added to enrich and to help "Uncompact" its consistancy. This is allowed to cook a bit over the winter. I don't add table scraps. This can give you too many stray seeds and such. I think its important to add some lime to the pile in the fall. It takes a lot of time for the calcium to break down enough to be used by the tomato plants and this gives a few month's time for that to happen. The moisture content of the pile is checked a few times during the winter and I turn the material over at least once a month. In the spring, the tarp comes off and the pile is stirred and allowed to air out for a few days (sheltered from rain). Then, I mix it with newly purchased mix for the new season's pots (which have been cleaned and rinsed with a light chlorine bleach solution just before potting up). My formula is approx ~60% old mix, ~30% new mix, and ~10% Black Kow composted manure, some more dolomite lime, and some more slow release fertilizer - usually 10-10-10. With a very small finite space to use, adding new mix each year means a lot of growing medium. I give away a lot of plants each year to friends and neighbors or to charity organizations. This past year I sent out more than 300 seedlings in 9 oz drink cups. That took a lot of mix. I also give plants in larger containers to seniors here in my community. When my initial plant-out and the give-aways are done, any remaining mix from last year is usually added to the flower beds. BTW, I do have earthworms in my tarp pile. I'm not sure how they got there, but they seem to like the neighborhood. It seems like I find more and more each year. And one more thing - after the growing season, check with the businesses that stock the professional mixes - Home Depot, Lowes, Kmart, Walmart, Ace Hardware, etc. Many will have sales on remaining stock for 50% off or more. Also, during the spring, look for busted bags. These are usually half off or better. A busted bag might be that a fork lift barely ripped the plastic bag. Even if you only get one bag at a time, a bag here and another there and pretty soon you have what you need. Hope this helps. Ted __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch

November 28, 2009	#5
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	B54 - to be sure you're clear, we're talking "soil borne diseases" are lessened greatly by using containers. But containers that are placed with their drainage holes in contact with the indigenous soil are not fully protected from these soil borne maladies. My containers are not allowed to touch the ground because of the possibility of them "wicking" up some of the bad stuff. Foliage diseases like fusarium and blight are not deterred and antifungal sprays will still be necessary. Ted __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch

November 27, 2009	#2
Zana Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Southwestern Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,521	I empty about half of my large containers (about 30"diameter minimum and about 24" to 30" deep) into a large wheel barrel. I then add the equivalent of 1/4 of the same container each of a soilless mix and home-made compost. Mix it all up and then store it over the winter in large garbage cans with wheels (rubbermaid makes some good size ones) The idea is to make sure that stuff from the containers is not too moist when you do this, or the weight will be more than you want for moving them. Sometimes I add perlite and vermiculite instead of soil-less mix...it depends on what the forecasts are for that year. So if I've used the "soil" for more than 3 years, its usually part from year 1, part from year 2 and part from year 3 plus the yearly additions of "new" stuff. Considering i normally add more containers on an annual basis, and garbage cans, I end up with enough for the next year. I try to do the mixing in the fall and let them sit in the garbage cans over the winter to "cook", as these get set out in the backyard along the fence catching a western exposure. The advantage is that the "soil" heats up in the sun before I need it come spring - so is warmer than any ground beds. And if I feel really energetic I might actually bring them into the garage a couple of weeks before I plan on planting/ filling the containers, to further warm up. I have 20 of those plastic containers that have the rope handles that are about 30" across. At least 75 5-gal pails. By doing this scenario...and adding containers annually, I only had to buy about the equivalent of 4 to 5 bags of soil-less mix/container mix annually at most...and have reached a point where I have 12 of the garbage cans full right now for the winter. I didn't use the soil this year, (I was not allowed to turn the patio into a jungle this year as the house was listed for sale - it didn't sell so I may be dealing with the same next year...don't know at this point.) but in 2008 I had over 140 containers. An increase of about 30 5-gal pails over the previous year....so not that much in the grand scheme of things in terms of "soil". Hope this makes sense...but that's what I do. PS I do empty all of them annually....so that everything can be cleaned. Also so that the larger containers that are the heavy plastic that can withstand the cold, can be stacked upside down outside over the winter.

November 28, 2009	#4
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	I keep reading about less diseases with container grown tomatoes and may try a few this year because I live in an area rife with tomato diseases. I also live in an area that is famous for the taste of locally grown tomatoes and I have to admit I'd rather fight disease and have better tasting tomatoes. I'll compare the taste of a couple of the same varieties grown both ways and judge the results in productivity, taste and disease tolerance.

November 29, 2009	#6
Elliot Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Hicksville, New York Posts: 503	Don't bet on avoiding tomato diseases by using containers. A great deal of the diseases are airborne and you never know if the soil you buy for the containers was made with mulch from infected products. I learned all of this the hard way. What I do is buy plants that that are vnf resistant. Next season however I will gravitate toward plants that are also late blight reistant. Elliot LI, New York

November 30, 2009	#8
chalstonsc Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: sc Posts: 339	There are plenty of diseases where I live and as Containerted above does, I do not let my containers touch the ground because I learned the hard way one year. Question I have is: airborne diseases are common and there is rarely a plant I have that doesn't come down with something before the end of the season, so is it safe to use mix that has had a plant growing in it that has becomes diseased with a airborne disease? The advice I've read before is that mix with a diseased plant in it should not be used again....is that caution only for soilborne diseases, or also for airborne diseases? Thanks.