Need help identifying mixed up seedings

[bigbubbacain]

I somehow managed to inadverdently mix up my N.A.R.X. and Top Sirloin seedlings. One of these has regular sized foliage, one is the potato-leaf type. Could someone please tell me which one of these is potato leaf?

[brokenbar]

Originally Posted by bigbubbacain

I somehow managed to inadverdently mix up my N.A.R.X. and Top Sirloin seedlings. One of these has regular sized foliage, one is the potato-leaf type. Could someone please tell me which one of these is potato leaf?

I looked on Seed Savers and it says Top Sirloin is Regular leaf

[Suze]

NAR-X can be either RL or PL depending on who you got it from, the generation, etc. I don't know which leaf type is considered "proper" for NAR-X at this point, or if that decision has been made yet.

Top Sirloin is RL.

Edit/add - so, I would try to find out if what your source sent you is consistently PL if you can. Otherwise, if their selection is still giving a mix of RL and PL, there is a chance some of that RL you see might not be Top Sirloin.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Suze

NAR-X can be either RL or PL depending on who you got it from, the generation, etc. I don't know which leaf type is considered "proper" for NAR-X at this point, or if that decision has been made yet.

Top Sirloin is RL.

Edit/add - so, I would try to find out if what your source sent you is consistently PL if you can. Otherwise, if their selection is still giving a mix of RL and PL, there is a chance some of that RL you see might not be Top Sirloin.

NAR should be RL. I'm the one who received the original seeds for it and first listed it in the SSE YEarbook several years ago. So yes Suze I'm the one who is making the decision as to what the proper leaf form for NAR should be and it's RL.

I didn't even know that there was a PL variant out there. but I've posted here before that I don't necessarily consider a PL variant of an original RL to be the same as the original. it has to do with the genetic mechanisms that can be involved in changes in leaf form.

Bubbacain, what was the source of your NAR seeds as was also asked above?

[lefty_logan]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

NAR should be RL. I'm the one who received the original seeds for it and first listed it in the SSE YEarbook several years ago. So yes Suze I'm the one who is making the decision as to what the proper leaf form for NAR should be and it's RL.

I didn't even know that there was a PL variant out there. but I've posted here before that I don't necessarily consider a PL variant of an original RL to be the same as the original. it has to do with the genetic mechanisms that can be involved in changes in leaf form.

Bubbacain, what was the source of your NAR seeds as was also asked above?

NARX is the cross of Brandywine x NAR. That is why there are potato and regular leaf variants.

[amideutch]

NAR-X was a RL selection by TomTrees, who named it as well, grown from F1 seed supplied by the creator of the cross Bill Jeffers. I grew it out last year, seeds from TT and it was RL also. From the original cross of Brandywine x Nar there has been several variations from RL Red and Pink to PL Red and Pink. Bubba, who was your source for both varieties? Ami

[Suze]

We are talking about NAR-X here, not NAR, as others noted. See Project: Brandywine x Neves Azorean Red thread

Edit/add - It seems that in '09, Tomstrees was still getting a few PL seedlings (low % though) for his selection of Bill's BW x NAR cross, which he dubbed NAR-X.

In my sowing of NAR-X this year (my source was Ami - F4 seed), all my seedlings came up RL.

Anyway, Bubba needs to talk to his source and see what he was sent for NAR-X. Since Tom was still growing out some of the PLs in '09 according to that thread (it appears), hard to say for sure without asking. Even if RL, I would not be surprised at all if it is still throwing a few PL seedlings.

In any case, all may not be lost if some of those RL seedlings Bubba has are NAR-X, because there are subtle coloration differences in NAR-X and Top Sirloin foliage. If he looks carefully, he might be able to figure out which ones are which.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Suze

We are talking about NAR-X here, not NAR, as others noted.

Yes, I see now and I didn't pay attention to the X associated with NAR so it all makes sense to me now. Cataract surgery for both eyes is on the docket for this summer.

So Bubba is growing either F2 saved seeds from Bill's cross of NAR X Brandywine or a further selection. I've only grown out the F1 seeds that Bill sent me, and of course saved seeds but haven't been able to continue with it due to lack of space. But since I know many folks are working with it in terms of selections that's good. And yes, I have seen both red and pink fruits and PL and RL variants from the cross since Bill takes lots of pictures and posts them .

[travis]

Hopefully you planted all your Top Sirloin seeds in one starter tray or one segregated area of a starter tray, and all the NARX seedlings in another starter tray or an area of the same starter tray separated from the Top Sirloin seeds.

100% of the Top Sirloin seeds should be regular leaf as everyone else has said.

Problem is, some of the NARX seedlings could be potato leaf while some could be regular leaf. Or all of the NARX seedlings could be potato leaf. It all depends on how the person from whom you got the seeds did the selection. Also as said by others.

Brandywine x Neves Azorean Red is going to make 100% regular leaf in the F1.

In the F2, the seedlings are going to be 25% potato leaf, 25% regular leaf dominant, and 50% regular leaf with potato leaf recessive genes remaining. That means that in the F3, the seeds saved from the 25% potato leaf F2 plants will remain potato leaf, the seeds saved from the 25% regular leaf dominant plants will remain regular leaf, but the F3 seeds saved from the 50% regular leaf F2 plants with recessive PL genes will again throw 25% potato leaf seedlings and 75% regular leaf, with the same percentage of those being PL recessives.

The process continues generation by generation. So whichever generation of regular leaf NARX you may have planted, there is a chance of some PL popping up unless by random chance your seed source selected 100% RL dominant vines for saving seeds.

Hopefully in your case you kept the Top Sirloin seeds totally separated from the NARX seeds within your starter tray or trays and just didn't label them clearly or something like that. Because if you have two trays or two separate areas of a starter tray with one group of seedlings showing 100% RL, those are the Top Sirloins and the other group of seedlings showing 100% PL, or with a mix of RL and PL over there, those are the NARX.

Of course, there's always the chance your source of Top Sirloin seeds experienced stray pollen from a PL variety two generations back. Forget I said that.

[Suze]

I need to type faster. Anyway, I wanted to note that I added to my post above while others were posting.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Suze

I need to type faster. Anyway, I wanted to note that I added to my post above while others were posting.

Yes, you do Suze.

And now I think I'm going back to bed for a bit b'c I was awake too early this morrning.

And thanks for the link so that others can see some of what's come out of the NAR X Brandywine cross.

[bigbubbacain]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

NAR should be RL. I'm the one who received the original seeds for it and first listed it in the SSE YEarbook several years ago. So yes Suze I'm the one who is making the decision as to what the proper leaf form for NAR should be and it's RL.

I didn't even know that there was a PL variant out there. but I've posted here before that I don't necessarily consider a PL variant of an original RL to be the same as the original. it has to do with the genetic mechanisms that can be involved in changes in leaf form.

Bubbacain, what was the source of your NAR seeds as was also asked above?

Carolyn, I got my N.A.R.X from Rnewste.

[bigbubbacain]

Originally Posted by Suze

We are talking about NAR-X here, not NAR, as others noted. See Project: Brandywine x Neves Azorean Red thread

Edit/add - It seems that in '09, Tomstrees was still getting a few PL seedlings (low % though) for his selection of Bill's BW x NAR cross, which he dubbed NAR-X.

In my sowing of NAR-X this year (my source was Ami - F4 seed), all my seedlings came up RL.

Anyway, Bubba needs to talk to his source and see what he was sent for NAR-X. Since Tom was still growing out some of the PLs in '09 according to that thread (it appears), hard to say for sure without asking. Even if RL, I would not be surprised at all if it is still throwing a few PL seedlings.

In any case, all may not be lost if some of those RL seedlings Bubba has are NAR-X, because there are subtle coloration differences in NAR-X and Top Sirloin foliage. If he looks carefully, he might be able to figure out which ones are which.

Suze, I got my N.A.R.X. seeds from Ray Newstead and I don't know where he got his. I'm very curious about this one, so I'll be growing everything out.

[bigbubbacain]

I just looked at my old emails from rnewste and he had gotten his N.A.R.X. seeds 2 years ago from Tomstrees. I don't know if these are the original seeds, or ones that Rnewste had saved himself. I'm only talking 4 plants in question, 2 of each. I already know I'm going to grow all four just to compare differences. I'll try to document growth and fruit with my camera.

[geeboss]

bigbubbacain

I grew out NAR X from Ray last season and it was reqular leaf. This year I've got Top Sirloin OP seedlings growing and they too are regular leaf.

George