Black Sea Man leaf type

[BlackestKrim]

I grew a bunch of Black Sea Man seeds and some of them in my seed tray came up with regular leaves instead of potato leaves. I looked online and almost all places say it is potato-leafed, while another place said a BSM can be potato or regular leaved.

I see 3 possibilities for my seedlings:

1. I dropped some other seeds in my cell with my BSM seeds
2. The seeds I got are mixed with another type, or resulted from a cross with another tomato
3. There exists a natural variation in the leaf-shape genes for BSM

What do you guys think? What is your experience with this tomato?

[nctomatoman]

Black Sea Man is potato leaf. I would say it is either possibility 1 or 2....is it your own saved seed?

[BlackestKrim]

No, I bought it and was hoping to save the seed. Oh well.

I thought I was pretty careful when I was planting (used tweezers, placed seeds carefully) so I might ask the company for a refund, or to send me seeds from another batch.

[nctomatoman]

Another way to look at it - the PL plants should be fine, since PL is recessive. If it was crossing or a mix up, you would get RL (which is dominant). So if you cull out the RL and plant only the PL, you should be fine.

[Andrey_BY]

There are both PL and RL versions of Chernomor (Black Sea Man) under distrubution of several Russian seed vendors as we have mentioned at SSE 2010 Yearbook together with Tania.

[BlackestKrim]

Ok, thanks a bunch.

[travis]

Seems there's two leaf shape versions of several Russian varieties. Some also seem to come in more than one epidermis color as well.

[mtbigfish]

The original though is PL and I believe the other may actually be crosses or mutation - but if it tatses good and offspring is good who cares - It only concerns me when seedlings come up and I don't know if I got the right variety or even another one - I try to plant the Known orgiginal leaf type unless the other shows some advantage and is stable
Dennis

[nctomatoman]

Man, this stuff drives me crazy! A tomato variety is a specific set of characteristics. If there are multiple leaf shapes and colors and all, we are talking different varieties or unstable varieties.

The great part of the boom in heirloom tomatoes - so many people are finding out about their qualities, helping to maintain them, and eating great stuff.

The downside, with so many people involved and so much seed saving going on is the incredibly higher increase in possibilities of seed mix ups, stray seed, crosses, or just incorrect data keeping or information.

The downside is certainly worth the upside (or is it vice versa? what I mean to say that it is great to see this level of interest and participation), but it is just so important to know what varieties were meant to be and to be able to spot problems. I know I am preaching to the choir, but this issue is just getting more and more challenging to deal with each passing year! That's why databases like Tania, the SSE yearbook - but mostly, people with experience and knowledge of the varieties at a historical level finding ways to document what any particular variety should be.

OK - time to get off the soap box! (ouch...)

[Tania]

Originally Posted by Andrey_BY

There are both PL and RL versions of Chernomor (Black Sea Man) under distrubution of several Russian seed vendors as we have mentioned at SSE 2010 Yearbook together with Tania.

Andrey,

The other Russian one that appears here in both leaf types is 'Chernyi Slon' (a.k.a. Black Elephant). I believe the correct, original, version should be PL, but an RL version is also around here, and I was a 'victim' who received an RL version supposedly from a Ukrainian CV

I get an impression that Russian and Ukrainian CVs occasionally sell different varieties under the same name... Or the same tomato under different names (like Sevryuga and Pudovik). Sigh.

Back to the Black Sea Man - the original version should be PL. The RL 'Chernomor' sold by some Russian CVs in the early 2000s may or may not be even related to the original PL version, who knows. The growth habit and fruit size or the RL Chernomor is different from PL Black Sea Man, and the RL version seems to be more blight-tolerant.

Tania

[akgardengirl]

I sure remember this discussion from awhile back Tania. The Chernomor I received from Tania is an indeterminate/reg. leaf. The tomatoes are tasty good! I quit calling it "Black Sea Man" ever since then.
Sue

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

Man, this stuff drives me crazy! A tomato variety is a specific set of characteristics. If there are multiple leaf shapes and colors and all, we are talking different varieties or unstable varieties.

The great part of the boom in heirloom tomatoes - so many people are finding out about their qualities, helping to maintain them, and eating great stuff.

The downside, with so many people involved and so much seed saving going on is the incredibly higher increase in possibilities of seed mix ups, stray seed, crosses, or just incorrect data keeping or information.

The downside is certainly worth the upside (or is it vice versa? what I mean to say that it is great to see this level of interest and participation), but it is just so important to know what varieties were meant to be and to be able to spot problems. I know I am preaching to the choir, but this issue is just getting more and more challenging to deal with each passing year! That's why databases like Tania, the SSE yearbook - but mostly, people with experience and knowledge of the varieties at a historical level finding ways to document what any particular variety should be.

OK - time to get off the soap box! (ouch...)

It's OK Craig, it really is, b'c I agree with you.

As I see it the problem is that most folks see an RL version of an originally described PL as being identical to the the PL in all ways except for leaf form, and I disagree very strongly with that assumption.

I'm going to link to the thread here posted by Tania on off types, b'c in that thread I went through the genetics of leaf forms, how they can change and that b'c there are different ways that a variety can go from RL to PL. or the reverse, that one cannot assume that PL and RL versions of the same variety are identical except for leaf form.

Here's that thread:

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=13582

[mensplace]

Since I don't eat the leaves, I can't help but wonder as to the actual difference in the appearance and flavor of the fruits. It seems that the RL vs PL may be an indicator of genes transmitted through the progeny, BUT does this, will this impact the subsequent fruit characteristics? Clearly one is recessive and the other dominant, but does either mean that the fruit will be materially, noticeably different. OR, is either with RL or PL really any less Black Sea Man? Might the same end result of such variance also be said of other varities, i.e., shoul I really care ....if the fruit is the same?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by mensplace

Since I don't eat the leaves, I can't help but wonder as to the actual difference in the appearance and flavor of the fruits. It seems that the RL vs PL may be an indicator of genes transmitted through the progeny, BUT does this, will this impact the subsequent fruit characteristics? Clearly one is recessive and the other dominant, but does either mean that the fruit will be materially, noticeably different. OR, is either with RL or PL really any less Black Sea Man? Might the same end result of such variance also be said of other varities, i.e., shoul I really care ....if the fruit is the same?

In the link I gave above I discussed all that you ask about.

Yes, PL and RL versions of a single variety can taste different as well as other fruit and plant traits being different.

And yes, PL and RL versions of Black Seaman could make the RL less of a Black Seaman variety.

No, the same end result is not present with a specific variety of a known leaf type, either PL or RL, and it's that difference that we've been discussing here, not the variable nature of any specific variety.

Should you care if the PL and RL versions of a single variety are the same or different with regard to fruit traits? I can't answer for you but it sure does to me.

Please take a look at that link above and I'm pretty sure you'll then appreciate the difference between a PL and RL version of the same variety being due to a single spontaneous mutation of leaf form, in which case all else is the same with the variety except for leaf form, as opposed to the ways that a PL can arise from an RL due to other genetic mechanisms where MORE than one gene can be involved and so more than the simple leaf trait can be affected.

[nctomatoman]

I will adamantly take a strong stand on this.

Leaf shape defines a variety. Ponderosa is regular leaf. Cherokee Purple is regular leaf. Brandywine is potato leaf. There are no other "versions". It DEFINES the variety as much as fruit shape or color.

When different leaf shapes show up in a variety, it is a strong signal that something is different. You are no longer discussing that variety.

Gardeners who just grow to eat the fruit and are not saving and sharing seeds of course don't really need to be concerned about it.

But if we are trying to maintain lines, then yes, we have to be concerned about it. Because a leaf shape mutation shift in a tomato is very, very rare. And if the leaf shifts, and that shift is stabilized, it should get a different name, because it is now a different variety.

Otherwise, all of our large pink tomatoes could be considered Ponderosa or Potato leaf Ponderosa. What if the origin of Brandywine was a selection and stabilization of a potato leaf plant from Ponderosa seed?

I don't think that I am making my point very well, because the essence of the relevance of this doesn't seem to come through. It is all about maintaining accurately our plant heritage.