Why not bush and determinate?

Until this season, I always grew hybrid tomatoes. This season I developed an interest in heirloom varieties and devoted most of my garden to heirlooms. I did plant a few hybrids just in case the heirlooms I am unfamiliar with don't produce.

Unfortunately, our hot season arrived a full month earlier than normal in North Texas. The forecast later this week is 103 degrees F daytime and near 80 degrees for night time lows. I believe my spring tomato season is over with very few fruit set. That is true for my hybrids and heirlooms. The only heirloom still blooming and setting fruit are my Prudens Purple.

In the past, I've always avoided determinate tomatoes because I simply didn't want all of my tomatoes ripening at the same time. I also typically avoided bush type tomatoes because I've always grown in cages or staked. For some reason, the idea of tomato plants and fruit laying on the ground simply doesn't seem appealing to me.

Last July, with the temps in the low 100's, I planted four Goliath hybrid, bush type plants. All my other plants were either dead or dormant from the heat. They started growing immediately and kept me busy staking and harvesting until the first frost in November. Due to my prejudice against bush types, I did stake them. They looked really funny twisting and turning on the stakes, but they grew. They also produced some of the largest, good tasting tomatoes I had all season. They also produced a huge amount of fruit.

Considering the early failure of my tomatoes this year, I may reconsider my selection of indeterminate over determinate and also the growth of bush type plants.

Why isn't there more discussion of heirloom determinate and heirloom bush type tomatoes among seasoned gardeners?

I will probably plant some more Goliath this summer just so I can have some tomatoes this year.

Ted

[Suze]

Unfortunately, our hot season arrived a full month earlier than normal in North Texas.

Ted, where are you in Texas? North (closer to panhandle), north central? And when did you plant out? Temps for the metroplex have not been all that bad this year so far, about what I would consider average. Same here.

I do see some hotter days coming soon in the forecast, though. But again, that's typical for June weather in Texas, I think. Unless of course you are in the panhandle or close.

I'm about sixty miles north of Dallas. I planted out in the last week of March, first week of April which is our normal last frost. Last year I planted in Mid March and had two hard frosts after that. It seems folks south and west of DFW who planted quite a bit earlier than me have had a good early tomato season. North of DFW, it has been much hotter than seasonally normal. Some years we will have a week of pretty warm temps in mid may and then a cool front will come through and the tomatoes will continue blooming for quite a while. This year, the plants are still growing, but for the most part, have stopped blooming. I do have some large fruit from early blooms on my plants, but nothing after that. I'm not really that concerned because I will continue planting out monthly into late July. I'm sure some of those plants will produce well into fall.

Ted

[nctomatoman]

Ted, the main reason is that there are hardly any heirloom true Determinate types (not Dwarfs, they are something altogether different - but there aren't may of them, either!). In fact, the first true determinate seems to be Cooper's Special in the 1920s - and it was used to create Pritchard's Scarlet Topper, another OP Determinate. Sophie's Choice is the only older, heirloom non commercial Determinate I know of.

More recently, there are quite a few red small fruited Determinates that became popular in the 1950s and 1960s - but really more for northern climates and shorter seasons (Stokes used to sell a whole slew of them). Then there is Taxi - a small yellow bush type. And a few Russian black fruited determinates - Black Sea Man, Southern Night and Blue Fruit - found their way into the SSE in the early 1990s. And Roma, of course, is a determinate.

The main theory on Determinates relative lack of flavor (and perhaps interest?) is due to the very high fruit to foliage ratio - so less potential photosynthesis per fruit, less flavor development. I've not really found the flavor found in the large fruited indeterminate heirlooms in any of the determinates I've grown.

[carolyn137]

Why isn't there more discussion of heirloom determinate and heirloom bush type tomatoes among seasoned gardeners?

****

Craig has summed up quite a few comments I would have made so I won't repeat them.

I will say that to date I much prefer growing indeterminates, for the most part, b'c I think they have much better taste.

There are some dets that I especially like, but not many. I have tasted the fruits from several of the varieties from the dwarf project and really liked the taste of Summertime Gold and Summertime Green.

You say you haven't seen much talk about det vs indet but you're very new here and for sure those comparisons have been discusssed not just here, but at every message site place I've read/posted at since 1989.

[Suze]

Thanks for the further info on where you're at, Ted.

Now, I know you didn't ask about optimal planting times, but I still thought it might be important to bring up the subject. I'm not really up to speed on areas much above N. Central Tx or to the extreme east or west, nor have I been following the weather for those parts of the state this year.

One thing I will suggest is if you wait to plant until after the last possible chance of frost or freeze in Texas, it might be too late if you want the best results. Almost every year, I have one or more nights that drop at least a couple of degrees below 32 a week or more after I plant out. I wrap cages in row cover to protect and leave it in place for at least a couple of weeks, and several others do too. I believe mdvpc also wraps his cages with something to protect from wind and cold when he first plants out, but I could be misremembering. He is more of a zone 7, and I think his spring is generally more unstable than mine, but I think he tries to get most of his tomatoes planted out in March, too.

Also, what nctomatoman said.

I can't really think of a lot of OP true dets that taste great. Early varieties that tend to do well for me and taste good include Bloody Butcher, Kimberly, Moskvich, 506 Dwarf Bush Early, and Sungold (definitely not compact or det in any way!)

I'm also working on this saladette pink that is early and good, compact indet, and not yet stable.

From the Dwarf Project, I love Summertime Gold, Summer Sunrise, Summertime Green, and Dwarf Emerald Giant. Terrific tomatoes on compact plants that always do well here with great taste, but not technically det as Craig suggested, kind of their own "type".

I understand a little better. I simply was not aware that the selection of available OP, determinate varieties is so limited. I have seen some discussions of determinates occur on other forums over the years, but they always seemed to end when the name "Roma" came up. I wasn't aware of how limited the choices are.

Suze,
I've learned a few things about growing heirlooms from seed this year including the fact that I have to start germinating my plants at the same time I plant my onions in January. I didn't start this year until February which made it a little difficult to get them in the ground before the first week in April. I guess for next year, I will have to build some sort of greenhouse or heated cold frame in order to germinate my seedlings early enough.

In years past, I always tried to have my seedlings planted by mid March. I'm pretty good at protecting my garden from unexpected late freezes. I'm learning.

Thanks

Ted

[feldon30]

Originally Posted by tedln

In the past, I've always avoided determinate tomatoes because I simply didn't want all of my tomatoes ripening at the same time. I also typically avoided bush type tomatoes because I've always grown in cages or staked.

I always grow for flavor, and most of the really flavorful varieties I want to grow are indeterminates. Of course there are several examples of good determinates and dwarf (rugose) varieties, and I'd love to try them in the future.

Our season is so short (prime harvest for me is just 3 weeks: May 21-June 14) that I would grow determinates and indeterminates interchangably and not worry about a "concentrated" harvest. I think that's going to happen anyway.

Originally Posted by tedln

I will probably plant some more Goliath this summer just so I can have some tomatoes this year.

I know some fans of Goliath. It's supposed to be quite good.

Originally Posted by tedln

I'm about sixty miles north of Dallas. I planted out in the last week of March, first week of April which is our normal last frost. Last year I planted in Mid March and had two hard frosts after that.

Growing tomatoes in Texas is rough! I plant the first or second week of March, and then have to protect them from 2-3 cold spells. I've got a stock of plastic 5 gallon buckets, blankets, and row cover.

Originally Posted by tedln

I've learned a few things about growing heirlooms from seed this year including the fact that I have to start germinating my plants at the same time I plant my onions in January. I didn't start this year until February which made it a little difficult to get them in the ground before the first week in April. I guess for next year, I will have to build some sort of greenhouse or heated cold frame in order to germinate my seedlings early enough.

Have you got a workroom, garage, spare bathroom, closet, or other room or building that won't freeze? A single 40W 4' fluorescent shop light hanging from chains is all you need to start tomato seedlings. Just keep the light 1-2" maximum from the leaves (the light won't burn if it touches the leaves).

Originally Posted by tedln

In years past, I always tried to have my seedlings planted by mid March. I'm pretty good at protecting my garden from unexpected late freezes. I'm learning.

Sounds like it. I hope you can make it to SETTFest on June 19th. We'll have upwards of 75 tomato varieties to taste.

[b54red]

I prefer the indeterminates except for a few that can be ok in the very early part of the season. Other than the taste difference my biggest problem with determinates is their short bushy growth habit which is a problem in our humidity. I like the plant to be more open and higher off the ground to avoid the foliage diseases that plague my area.

[creister]

Suze,

You are correct in that north Texas springs are widely variable, and this year was one big extreme. We had an unusally long and cold late March and even into April, although no freezing, but mid 30, 40s and low 50s, and much rain. I think the soil stayed cooler longer.

In retrospect, some years have been outstanding. I didn't wrap my cages this year, but have been devising a strategy for next. My problem is they shade each other, so that can reduce growth as well.

My plan for next year will be to plant two cages at the end of each bed around the end of March, as well as in the small raised beds and containers. All wrapped in grow cloth and maybe even some clear plastic.

The rest I will plant in intervals, most likely the varities that I know produce well even when it gets warm. This is a tough place to grow tomatoes, but due to much good advice from so many here at T'ville and the other place, I usually get some good crops of maters.

Feldon,

I also grow for flavor. Flavor is the primary reason I am attempting to grow heirlooms this year. I simply remember the great taste of tomatoes when I was a kid and want to have it again. I also grow for production which is a very close second to flavor. My wife and I, as well as our children and their families can only consume a limited number of tomatoes in a season. Most of my tomatoes are given to friends who believe any home grown tomato tastes better than store bought. This year, my hope is to introduce them to tomatoes of various colors and flavors. I am looking forward to some seed from the dwarf project being commercially available in the next few years. I think it would be great to grow an abundance of tasty tomatoes, on a plant of a smaller stature with the production characteristics of an indeterminate.

I have planted in early March a few times in the past, but it always seemed the soil temps were still a little low in early march. This year, early march was only a little more than a week past the last snow melt in February. I do grow in raised beds with the hope that they will warm faster in the spring.

I also have plenty of space in my shop to germinate and plan to create a space dedicated to seed germination. Since I plan to germinate and plant from spring into late July, early August. My germination set up will be used for a about five months every year. I am however intrigued by the thought of germinating and growing into the large seedling stage under more natural conditions (sunlight). I think a small greenhouse or heated and cooled cold frame will accomplish that. I germinated in the shop this year in a limited way under halogen lights. I used the halogen lamps to also provide heat for the seedlings.

I still have some JD's Special C Tex and Black From Tula seedlings growing under the halogen lamps. I may be mistaken, but they seem to develop a deeper green color under the halogen than under the florescent light. My new setup will include the florescent lighting.

I also collect and keep the five gallon buckets along with other containers and covers to protect my plans from frost. Since we have an abundance of fallen oak leaves, I've found a good insulating cover of oak leaves does a good job. A power leaf blower gets rid of the leaves when warm weather returns.

I am interested and hopeful for the SETTFEST in June. I had thought it was scheduled for July and we will be enjoying the cool mountains of Colorado in July.

Thanks

Ted

[bigbubbacain]

The only determinate I really like is Martino's Roma, and that's because it has a huge consistent harvest so I can pick and process in a relatively quick period.

My preference for inteterminates is because I can shape and train the plants and they're quite forgiving if I do prune them.

[chalstonsc]

Ted,
Have been where you are and am still trying to work through issues you have. This year I've taken several new approaches and so far am having what seems to be significantly more success than previous years.

Cold weather in March: In years past I've planted out at different times in March...last year was March 8th. Inevitably my plants were beat up by cold winds, etc. I covered my plants, moved my containers into the garage and I never saw really good growth until mid-April. This year I potted up to 32 oz yogurt containers and planted out April 21st(8 week transplants), a week later than I wanted to, but this week I have my first ripe tomatoes picked and in all previous years planting in March the earliest I picked ripe fruit, usually Sungold, was a week or week and a half earlier. I moved my transplants (easily) inside on any night below 50F, and outside for full days sunlight, again unless weather was below 50F, allowing me to pretty much do as close to a "cold treatment" as possible. My transplants were stockier and healthier than ever before, and got a very fast start when transplanted. They are healthier and have more fruit set than in any previous year.

Heirlooms/determinates: I've always grown heirlooms, but have to grow all mine in containers because my soil has bacterial wilt. My production from most heirloom indeterminates has been modest and sometimes disappointing as I grow in 5 gal. containers and the plants are large. Last year I experimented with semi-determinates and smaller indeterminates and am doing so again this year, theory being smaller plants in my containers will withstand heat, require less water, and hopefully produce better. Last year two very tasty and more productive varieties were Earl of Edgecomb and Lida Ukranian. This year I have Danko and Serdste Buivola, as early and productive as any in the garden on small plants. Others I have are Sophie's Choice, Lime Green Salad, Rutgers, Marglobe, Marion, Red Paragon, Break O Day, Fireball, Early Rouge, Cabot. For my Fall tomatoes, I'm trying some determinates such as Matchless, Redskin, Hanky Red, Martinos Roma, and some other again smaller indeterminates that are supposed to have good flavor.....too early to tell how good the production and taste will be on all of them, but there seem to be some good reputations and so far what appear to be some good results....

Just some ideas you might consider/...

Tom

[GunnarSK]

Originally Posted by tedln

I also grow for flavor. Flavor is the primary reason I am attempting to grow heirlooms this year. I still have some JD's Special C Tex and Black From Tula seedlings growing under the halogen lamps. Ted

You may also consider determinates which are not heirlooms but commercial varieties, like Moravsky Div,
sold by Gleckler with typo and everythinghttp://www.glecklerseedmen.com/Moras...87_497720.aspx)

[travis]

While heirloom may or may not apply to all of them, I've grown a few determiantes that I thought tasted fine and tolerated heat very well. Among them, Rutgers and Marglobe are the more common varieties, and University of Missouri developed a few good ones as well. Bradley from University of Arkansas is another determinate that does well in the heat, has a very good flavor and yields beyond a concentrated set.