How old is the Cherokee Purple?

lilhammerlane · February 22, 2011

just doing some research and finding out that some historians could be wrong about the native indians having CP from the the 1800s or earlier...

Fusion_power · February 22, 2011

One place would be to look up books on Cherokee history. I've read letters written in the mid 1800's that document growing strawberries, beans, tomatoes, corn, squash, etc. That gets you back 150 years which admittedly is not very far.

DarJones

fortyonenorth · February 22, 2011

From http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Cherokee_Purple

Cherokee Purple was sent to Craig LeHoullier by John D. Green of Sevierville, Tennessee, in 1990 as an unnamed variety. The original letter sent with the seeds that describes all that is known of its history is referenced here [1]. Mr. Green got the variety from a woman who, in turn, received them from her neighbor. The neighbor claimed that they have been in their family for 100 years, originally receiving them from the Cherokee Indians. Craig named the variety and listed it in the SSE yearbook the year after he first grew them (1990). He also sent seeds to Southern Exposure Seed Exchange, then, a few years later, Johnny's Selected Seeds.

I think this history--which is apparently definitive--has been embellished over the years.

travis · February 22, 2011

Here is a scan of the note from J.D. Green to Craig LeHoullier.
http://www.saveseeds.org/library/sup...reen2craig.jpg

TZ-OH6 · February 22, 2011

Tomatoes and peppers were introduced to the U.S native tribes by Europeans. (Spanish brought peppers north from Mexico, and tomatoes came back across the Atlantic). The tomatoes presumably much later than the peppers, and the Cherokees were not an isolated tribe (i.e. interacted with the European population) so they most likely got their first tomatoes from some general store/seedsman someplace. I view the situation as being similar to the Amish. Corn, bean and squash varieties are a different matter. It is more likely that advertized native/Indian varieties are historic/pre-colonization, although a few squashes bearing tribal names were "improvd" by Oscar an/or George Will.

**carolyn137** · February 22, 2011

Many times Craig has encouraged John Green to see if he could find the lady who gave him the seeds but to date that hasn't been possible.

As to dark colored fruits being present in the US and at what time periods here's a link to a discussion about Will Weaver's True Brandywine, which is in the Legacy Forum which speaks to that issue:

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=7749

Lil, which historians are you speaking of when you say that they could be wrong about having CP from the Indians in the 1800's or earlier. All I know is that Craig receieved the seeds from John in I guess about 1991 or so and the info he got at that time, noted above, said at that time that it was known to have been grown for 100 years or so, which takes it back to the late 1800's.

Earlier than 1800? I think the above links addresses that in a more general way as to the presence of dark colored varieties here in the US and elsewhere .

When I first received the seeds for Indaian Stripe I did one heck of a lot of background research to see where it might have come from, geographically in the US, and I traced the Cherokee migration routes to see how it could have gotten to Arkansas. Then there was a woman who posted in the Heirloom Forum at GW many years ago, I remembered that b'c she was Cherokee and from Arkansas, and she said that there was still a large Cherokee presence there b'c as the migration routes went west to OK, many dropped out.

So pre 1800 dark colored varieties? Take a look at the above link.

lilhammerlane · February 22, 2011

well from what Im finding out now....the purples/blacks were not even seen in the US until the 1950s?
after the russians developed these...
so the claim that folks had a history told to them about CP, could be wrong...Was Craig lied to by his contact back in the day?

fortyonenorth · February 22, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilhammerlane

Was Craig lied to by his contact back in the day?

That's a pretty strong suggestion, isn't it? From my reading of the letter, Craig's "contact" just passed on the history as it was related to him.

O.P. Mater · February 22, 2011

lilhammerlane,
Could you please supply links to your sources? Was the information in a book or was it online? Thanks!

**carolyn137** · February 22, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilhammerlane

well from what Im finding out now....the purples/blacks were not even seen in the US until the 1950s?
after the russians developed these...
so the claim that folks had a history told to them about CP, could be wrong...Was Craig lied to by his contact back in the day?

Lil, if you look at the thread I linked to above you could see that dark colored varieties were in the US prior to 1950.

And I'm going to link you to another thread, this one from GW which I think is terrific and have kept it in my faves now for a while and wasn't available when True Black Brandywine was being discussed in the Legacy Forum.

Please look especially at the April post of mulio/aka Keith, the comment from the article he's quoting from saying that current genetic analysis doesn't point to CP as being 100 years old, but then going to a discussion of Phillipine tomatoes and the first dark one entered the US in 1848 which was the earliest it was documented here. As undocumented, who knows.

No the Russians didn't really develop the blacks, it used to be thought that they first appeared in the Crimea, but again, look at the genetic data in the following link and see what you think.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...529042.html?13

And no, I don't think John Green lied to Craig, I think he was passing on information that had been given to him by John G, which is not the same as Craig being lied to. if you're suggesting that John Green lied, why would he do so when he was handing over the seeds to Craig? And as was noted in the thread from the TBB legacy one, John gave seeds to Craig for several other varieties as well, so they knew each other, it wasn't a one shot correspondence.

Hope the above helps, especially the GW thread.

Heritage · February 22, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Hope the above helps, especially the GW thread.

Great information in the thread, thanks Carolyn.

lilhammerlane · February 23, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.P. Mater

lilhammerlane,
Could you please supply links to your sources? Was the information in a book or was it online? Thanks!

I would, but its in another site, and I dont want to get banned for mentioning it.

matereater · February 23, 2011

They don't do that here.

Worth1 · February 23, 2011

Since the tomato along with beans corn potatoes squash and several other edible crops were first developed here in the so called “New World” it seems likely the by the time the Europeans got here people already had different cultivars.
Actually they did, corn for example wasn’t even able to grow in North America until trough time cultivars were developed that had a short enough growing season to do so.
The Cherokee lived in the east and were one of the first of the civilized tribes to adopt European ways.
They dressed like Europeans they adopted Christianity they lived in houses and got along with everybody.
Then Andrew Jackson came along and wanted their land and he also wanted them to fight for him.
They were moved many times during all of this (so Europeans could have their land) and eventually the Cherokee along with other civilized tribes were moved to Oklahoma.
This was not a migration it was a forced removal and many people died along the way.
It was called the Trail of Tears, one of America’s lowest moments in history.
I equate it to the concentration camps in Europe in the 30’s and 40’s.
As many of you know I am about 1/8 or 1/4 Native American and went to school in Oklahoma with the Choctaw and Cherokee.
We had to learn more about Indian history than just about anybody else in the US.
What does this have to do with a tomato?
Actually a lot, I would like to think that the 1000’s of years that the Native Americans were here and grew them that they not the Europeans developed at least some of these cultivars.
It would surly seem to be so.
I would like to think that along with the forced removal of the Cherokee that they brought along their seeds to a place they had never seen before.
Along with these seeds was the fine tomato we call Cherokee Purple.
With this said I would like to thank the Cherokee for one darn good tomato.

Worth

lilhammerlane · February 23, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by matereater

They don't do that here.

Ha-ha...oh really?

February 22, 2011	#1
lilhammerlane Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Jackson, MS Posts: 37	How old is the Cherokee Purple? just doing some research and finding out that some historians could be wrong about the native indians having CP from the the 1800s or earlier...

February 22, 2011	#6
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Many times Craig has encouraged John Green to see if he could find the lady who gave him the seeds but to date that hasn't been possible. As to dark colored fruits being present in the US and at what time periods here's a link to a discussion about Will Weaver's True Brandywine, which is in the Legacy Forum which speaks to that issue: http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=7749 Lil, which historians are you speaking of when you say that they could be wrong about having CP from the Indians in the 1800's or earlier. All I know is that Craig receieved the seeds from John in I guess about 1991 or so and the info he got at that time, noted above, said at that time that it was known to have been grown for 100 years or so, which takes it back to the late 1800's. Earlier than 1800? I think the above links addresses that in a more general way as to the presence of dark colored varieties here in the US and elsewhere . When I first received the seeds for Indaian Stripe I did one heck of a lot of background research to see where it might have come from, geographically in the US, and I traced the Cherokee migration routes to see how it could have gotten to Arkansas. Then there was a woman who posted in the Heirloom Forum at GW many years ago, I remembered that b'c she was Cherokee and from Arkansas, and she said that there was still a large Cherokee presence there b'c as the migration routes went west to OK, many dropped out. So pre 1800 dark colored varieties? Take a look at the above link. __________________ Carolyn

February 22, 2011	#9
O.P. Mater Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2010 Location: upstate SC Posts: 147	sources? lilhammerlane, Could you please supply links to your sources? Was the information in a book or was it online? Thanks!

February 23, 2011	#13
matereater Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: S.E. Michigan (Livonia) Posts: 1,264	They don't do that here. __________________ Steve Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult

February 22, 2011	#2
Fusion_power Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,250	One place would be to look up books on Cherokee history. I've read letters written in the mid 1800's that document growing strawberries, beans, tomatoes, corn, squash, etc. That gets you back 150 years which admittedly is not very far. DarJones

February 22, 2011	#3
fortyonenorth Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: NW Indiana Posts: 1,150	From http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Cherokee_Purple Cherokee Purple was sent to Craig LeHoullier by John D. Green of Sevierville, Tennessee, in 1990 as an unnamed variety. The original letter sent with the seeds that describes all that is known of its history is referenced here [1]. Mr. Green got the variety from a woman who, in turn, received them from her neighbor. The neighbor claimed that they have been in their family for 100 years, originally receiving them from the Cherokee Indians. Craig named the variety and listed it in the SSE yearbook the year after he first grew them (1990). He also sent seeds to Southern Exposure Seed Exchange, then, a few years later, Johnny's Selected Seeds. I think this history--which is apparently definitive--has been embellished over the years.

February 22, 2011	#4
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	Here is a scan of the note from J.D. Green to Craig LeHoullier. http://www.saveseeds.org/library/sup...reen2craig.jpg

February 22, 2011	#5
TZ-OH6 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Mid-Ohio Posts: 848	Tomatoes and peppers were introduced to the U.S native tribes by Europeans. (Spanish brought peppers north from Mexico, and tomatoes came back across the Atlantic). The tomatoes presumably much later than the peppers, and the Cherokees were not an isolated tribe (i.e. interacted with the European population) so they most likely got their first tomatoes from some general store/seedsman someplace. I view the situation as being similar to the Amish. Corn, bean and squash varieties are a different matter. It is more likely that advertized native/Indian varieties are historic/pre-colonization, although a few squashes bearing tribal names were "improvd" by Oscar an/or George Will.

February 23, 2011	#14
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	Since the tomato along with beans corn potatoes squash and several other edible crops were first developed here in the so called “New World” it seems likely the by the time the Europeans got here people already had different cultivars. Actually they did, corn for example wasn’t even able to grow in North America until trough time cultivars were developed that had a short enough growing season to do so. The Cherokee lived in the east and were one of the first of the civilized tribes to adopt European ways. They dressed like Europeans they adopted Christianity they lived in houses and got along with everybody. Then Andrew Jackson came along and wanted their land and he also wanted them to fight for him. They were moved many times during all of this (so Europeans could have their land) and eventually the Cherokee along with other civilized tribes were moved to Oklahoma. This was not a migration it was a forced removal and many people died along the way. It was called the Trail of Tears, one of America’s lowest moments in history. I equate it to the concentration camps in Europe in the 30’s and 40’s. As many of you know I am about 1/8 or 1/4 Native American and went to school in Oklahoma with the Choctaw and Cherokee. We had to learn more about Indian history than just about anybody else in the US. What does this have to do with a tomato? Actually a lot, I would like to think that the 1000’s of years that the Native Americans were here and grew them that they not the Europeans developed at least some of these cultivars. It would surly seem to be so. I would like to think that along with the forced removal of the Cherokee that they brought along their seeds to a place they had never seen before. Along with these seeds was the fine tomato we call Cherokee Purple. With this said I would like to thank the Cherokee for one darn good tomato. Worth