Which is better - small or large transplant?

[JoeP]

My first time starting from seed so a little worried that my seedlings are not progressing very fast. I am attempting to follow the suggestions by NCtomatoman in the top sticky for dense planting method.

I started most of my seed on 3/19/2011 and that should give me 7 weeks before last frost/plantout.

I have them under a 4-tube shop light, of T8, 32w, 2800 lumen, 3000k color temp, about 2-3 inches from the tops of plants. Everything seems to be progressing OK. Almost all have a set of true leaves and some of the cotyledons have started to yellow.

The tallest ones are only about 1.5 inches tall. I plan to transplant to 4" pots this weekend and put in mini-greenhouse for the next 4 weeks.

Yesterday, however, I found myself in a local nursery that already has tomato transplants that are 18" tall in gallon pots (a month before last frost!). I couldn't stop myself from thinking that I've come to this seed starting party a few weeks too late. But then I remembered reading on Darrel Jones' site that small, healthy plants are preferable to larger plants.....about phase of growth, etc. and I calmed down.

I am not going to tear up or anything but could someone confirm that I am on track for successful tomato plants if they are only 1.5" high at 2.5 weeks from sowing and 4.5 weeks til plant out?

[brismith70]

JoeP:

I will admit that I am not the most experienced gardener, so take my free advice for what it's worth.

According to your last frost date, you seem to be right on schedule. If you have a local cooperative extension office, they would be the best source of information for planting and growing in your local area. I rely heavily on my local cooperative extension because I am growing in such an alien environment and I am a relatively new gardener. The only information that I have is general information because I don't know where you live precisely. However, try: http://ext.wsu.edu. That'll be a good starting point for you. They will have a wealth of information for you to read.

I only hope that I have helped.

Brian

[akgardengirl]

I started mine the first part of March and they aren't much taller than yours. Once you transplant them into the bigger 4" pots, they seem to take off. I have mine about 1-2" below the T8 lights.
Sue

[carolyn137]

I prefer to set out 6 to 9 inch plants b'c they adapt better when they're smaller in my experience.

And I don't pot up either. I do one transplant from the seedling trays when they're about 1- 2 inches tall and transplat to plastic cells about 2 X 2 inches, 32 cells to a standard nursery tray and grow them on to that 6-9 inch size. Of course if the weather is bad when it's time to set them out they may get a tad bigger.

And yes, they may be a bit rootbouond but that's what I want. When you pot up the root system is much more fragile and likely to break apart when setting inground or in containers. But rootbound plants don't do that and ASAP set out new roots inground, where I want them to be.

This is the way all the commercial farmers I know of raise their plants and I've grown thousands of plants this way with excellent success.

My farmer friend Charlie also raises huge plants in 1 and 2 gal contaniers to sell wholesale to his retailers and laughs all the way to the bank about it but if folks want such large plants it's their money.

Charlie himself raises his plants for his own acres and acres of tomatoes the way I do.

[outsiders71]

OP:

What kind of starting soil did you use? If you are 7 weeks in and they only have a set of true leaves, it sounds like their is a problem. Did you transplant them yet or are they still in the dense planted tray? Check the heat output on those tubes, you can probably get away with moving the tubes to about an inch above the plants.

Carolyn:

That's very interesting that you purposely seek out root bound plants. I always try to avoid this! So you don't trim the root bound roots when you plant out? Interesting...

[ContainerTed]

My method is very similar to Carolyn's. I do the one transplant from either a 72 cell tray or dense planting to 9 ounce plastic cups. They get hardened off and introduced to fertilizer there. Because the gardening area I use right now has a heavy infestation of Colorado Potato Beetles, I plant out as large a plant as I can and dust immediately. The larger plants can more easily survive the beetles, which attack the newest, most tender growth.

From the cups, I plant the whole contents as a cup-shaped lump as deeply as it will permit. If the plant is a bit leggy, it gets lower leaf branches trimmed and the whole thing goes in as deep as I can get it.

I always check the local flea market for super-mature plants. Seems like someone always has a few. Last year it was 4 Marglobe plants, all of which had some fruit set. After a bit of negotiating, I got all four, which were in gallon containers, for a total of $5.00. That gave us some tasty early tomatoes.

Ted

[OneoftheEarls]

there is a catch up factor...I had VOLUNTEERS catch up to by healthy nice transplants

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by outsiders71

OP:

What kind of starting soil did you use? If you are 7 weeks in and they only have a set of true leaves, it sounds like their is a problem. Did you transplant them yet or are they still in the dense planted tray? Check the heat output on those tubes, you can probably get away with moving the tubes to about an inch above the plants.

Carolyn:

That's very interesting that you purposely seek out root bound plants. I always try to avoid this! So you don't trim the root bound roots when you plant out? Interesting...

I don't seek out the rootbound plants, they just happen. And really, if one is setting out the small transplants that many prefer and with which I agree, they won't be that rootbound in a 2 inch cell. It's not like you'll see coils of a white looking wormy mess that you might see if you bought some too big plants somewhere.

No, I don't trim the roots and no, I don't untangle the roots either.

When you pot up all you get is a huge fibrous fragile root structure which doesn't transplant all that well. You should want those new fragile roots to grow in the soil you're planting in, not a pot.

Fact is, I was raised on what we call a truck farm here in the East with acres and acres of tomatoes, peppers, squash, eggplant, you name it and we grew it. And I started helping out when I was 5 yo riding atop the plant setter and the older I got the more I was expected to do.

Fact is I'll be 72 this June and have been up close and personal with growing tomatoes now, what will it be. 72-5 = 68 years. And I got to know many of dad's commercial friends as well. And more to the point when I moved back East from Denver in 1982 and my father was no longer able to farm he let a young farmer use all the open land and I got to know Charlie and several of his large scale farmer friends very well.

I also started doing all my seed germination in his seed house, all my transplanting there and I had my own spot in greenhouse #17 to put the flats of transplanted tomatoes. That spot b'c it was in front of a large exhaust fan and Charlie preferred his plants a bit more away from that fan. he had 28 greenhouses and I had a blast for all the years I was there. And I miss it very much. But when I fell in Dec of 2004 and severad all four quads in my right leg that was the end of my setting out hundreds of plants and growing hundreds of varieties every year.

I even picked up two great pepper varieties from Joe Sesito at the greenhouses who would bring his basil and tomatoes to Charlie to grow for him and then bring Charlie beer and his wife would bring delicious Italian pastries.

Those two peppers were cleverly named Joe's Long and Joe's Round and Johnny's offers the long and SESE the round and the SSE public catalog offers both.

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

And I don't pot up either. I do one transplant from the seedling trays when they're about 1- 2 inches tall and transplat to plastic cells about 2 X 2 inches, 32 cells to a standard nursery tray and grow them on to that 6-9 inch size. Of course if the weather is bad when it's time to set them out they may get a tad bigger.

And yes, they may be a bit rootbouond but that's what I want. When you pot up the root system is much more fragile and likely to break apart when setting inground or in containers. But rootbound plants don't do that and ASAP set out new roots inground, where I want them to be.

Carolyn,

So when I transplant I should not break apart the roots (rootball/rootplug)of rootbound transplants? Just leave them alone - from 2" pot to ground with as little disturbance as possible?

Thanks,
Joe

EDIT - I see that you posted a reply while I was typing my post.....Timing.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JoeP

Carolyn,

So when I transplant I should not break apart the roots (rootball/rootplug)of rootbound transplants? Just leave them alone - from 2" pot to ground with as little disturbance as possible?

Thanks,
Joe

I never break apart the roots Joe, and the plants thrive, but if it makes you feel better to do so then go ahead and do it.

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by outsiders71

OP:

What kind of starting soil did you use? If you are 7 weeks in and they only have a set of true leaves, it sounds like their is a problem. Did you transplant them yet or are they still in the dense planted tray? Check the heat output on those tubes, you can probably get away with moving the tubes to about an inch above the plants.

I am using Black Gold Seed starting mix (soilless - 70% sphangum moss). I am 2.5 weeks from seed. I do think I have a problem (learned from a different thread) that my stems and leaf undersides are mostly purple - I've been told this is phosphorus deficiency.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JoeP

I am using Black Gold Seed starting mix (soilless - 70% sphangum moss). I am 2.5 weeks from seed. I do think I have a problem (learned from a different thread) that my stems and leaf undersides are mostly purple - I've been told this is phosphorus deficiency.

Joe, I can no longer keep up with all the threads but if your plants have a P deficiency that's caused them to turn purple, just ignore it. When the seedlings get larger and are set out that problem will disappear in warmer weather outside.

If it bothers you now you can give them a nice foliar spray of either seaweed or fish, which are high in micronutrients including P and since foliar feeding bypasses the roots the leaves will turn back to green.

The same thing can happen when outside, that is, with a cold spell inground plants can turn purple also and when the weather warms again they turn back to green.

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Joe, I can no longer keep up with all the threads but if your plants have a P deficiency that's caused them to turn purple, just ignore it. When the seedlings get larger and are set out that problem will disappear in warmer weather outside.

If it bothers you now you can give them a nice foliar spray of either seaweed or fish, which are high in micronutrients including P and since foliar feeding bypasses the roots the leaves will turn back to green.

The same thing can happen when outside, that is, with a cold spell inground plants can turn purple also and when the weather warms again they turn back to green.

Carolyn,

Thank you for the helpful advice. I'll try the 2" pots and take the 4" pots back to the garden store. I am grateful to have this forum.

Joe

[outsiders71]

Carolyn:

I'm trying to understand your method. I've never transplanted from small cells to bigger cells, rather 16oz cups. So keeping the transplants in a smaller growing container prevents a fibrous root structure from forming? Is this only beneficial to tomatoes or peppers/eggplants as well? Thanks.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JoeP

Carolyn,

Thank you for the helpful advice. I'll try the 2" pots and take the 4" pots back to the garden store. I am grateful to have this forum.

Joe

Joe, I don't use individual 2 inch pots I use plastic cell inserts that are 32 cells to a standard nursery tray. I don't see that using those smaller pots would be a problem, but I'm just saying how I do things and I think each person has to try different ways and see what does best for them.

So if you want to keep some of the four inch pots and transplant maybe 2 inch seedlings to those, then do that and then compare with the exact same tomato variety done in the 2inch pots.