What is meant by 'mild' flavor?

organichris · April 24, 2011

So if someone were to describe a tomato as sweet or acidic, I can relate to that. If you say "tangy" I can dig that too, but if you say "mild" - and you're talking about tomatoes rather than peppers - I really don't know where you're coming from.

My first inclination is to assume that this means the flavor is not that pronounced, in which case I am not interested in growing or eating it. That makes me think it's like a regular storebought tomato that has been picked green and gassed. But is that what folks really mean?

I think it is important for us to clarify these adjectives because obviously we leave a lot open to interpretation otherwise, and taste is subjective enough as it is.

Someone started a similar thread about what is meant by "old-fashioned" or "old-timey flavor" and it seemed that several folks wanted to weigh in on that one. What became apparent to me in that thread is that people have a tendency to take ownership of a term and personalize it so that it really becomes devoid of any actual meaning.

And here is another one I have trouble with: "smokey".

TZ-OH6 · April 24, 2011

Here is an example. Yellow pear cherry tomato tastes pretty good compared to grocerystore flavorless/poor flavor tomatoes, but then if you take a bite of most any other cherry tomato the flavor of the yellow pear is washed away.

I usually describe "Smokey" flavored varieties (e.g many blacks) as earthy, somewhat "mushroomy". I wouldn't call artificial grape or cherry flavor anything like the real thing, so we often have to go with somebody else's impression. Wine and whisky tastings are other things where imaginative impressions are the norm.

Barbee · April 24, 2011

To me, mild means no tangy or zippy taste. The first tomato to come to mind when I think mild is Kellogg's Breakfast. Not my favorite tomato in the world but way better than the cardboard store boughts.

Smoky hmm....the blacks to me are not necessarily earthy or smokey but more of an distinct aftertaste that stays in your mouth for awhile.

organichris · April 24, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barbee

To me, mild means no tangy or zippy taste. The first tomato to come to mind when I think mild is Kellogg's Breakfast. Not my favorite tomato in the world but way better than the cardboard store boughts.

Smoky hmm....the blacks to me are not necessarily earthy or smokey but more of an distinct aftertaste that stays in your mouth for awhile.

Barbee, almost didn't recognize you, buddy. I see you changed your avatar.

**carolyn137** · April 24, 2011

In my opinion there is absolutely no way that one can define a tomato taste, not just b'c there are so many variables involved ranging from soil, weather in any given year, amendments used and on and on and so many more variables.

The fact is that taste is both perceptual and personal and there's even a human genetic component involved.

Since all tomatoes assessed for pH to date, withJet Star F1 being an exception, have been found to vary little as regards actual pH, there really is no such thing as an acidic tasting tomato. I prefer to use the term aggressive, or something similar.

Smoky and salty as some refer to the so called black tomatoes? I've grown my share of blacks and have never experienced anything close to smokey or salty.

Sweet? All depends on the person doing the tasting as to whether it's sweet to him or her.

Mild? Could be seen as not much taste which is true for many of the so called whites, IMO, but someone might describe a variety as being mild and the next person disagreee with that strongly.

Spicy, tart, citrusy? All have been used to describe tomato tastes but again, only the person tasting a variety might describe it that way and others might disagree strongly.

Over 400 organic compounds regarding taste have been detected by mass spectroscopy in labs but the genes that direct the systhesis of those compounds remains unknown except for a couple of them/ And it's the specific blend of those taste genes that gives a spcific taste to a specific variety.

That's why when someone asks how a variety performs and what it tastes like I usually say that only the person growing it can make those determinations.

Just my opinion about the use of adjectives to describe tomato taste.

organichris · April 24, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

In my opinion there is absolutely no way that one can define a tomato taste, not just b'c there are so many variables involved ranging from soil, weather in any given year, amendments used and on and on and so many more variables.

The fact is that taste is both perceptual and personal and there's even a human genetic component involved... Just my opinion about the use of adjectives to describe tomato taste.

Point well taken, and I agree, of course.

But I also think that there is such a thing as consensus, and although this may be influenced by perceptions about popularity or whatever, it may also be based on shared experience.

For instance, I think most of us would agree that homegrown tomatoes generally taste better than the rubbery supermarket ones. And most of us can agree on what tastes sweet and what doesn't, particularly if something is really sweet. I don't think I have ever disagreed with anyone about what an excellent watermelon tasted like. Everyone knows when you get a good one.

In clarifying what people mean by these adjectives I do not intend to completely remove the subjectivity factor, but to minimize it so that the shared experience factor is amplified.

remy · April 24, 2011

When I use mild in a description, I'm like Barbee, there is no tangy or zippy flavor at all. I don't care for tomatoes like that. They taste bland to me, but not like a grocery store tomato that's a whole nother ball of wax. But some people don't care for tomatoes with tangy or zippy flavor.
I've never tasted what I would consider a smoky flavor with tomatoes.
Remy

**nctomatoman** · April 24, 2011

I use the term mild when I am trying to be nice, and to avoid the use of "bland" (esp. when selling tomato seedlings - trying to be sensitive to differences in perception of flavor). So to you all, the large yellow/red bicolors (except for Lucky Cross) come across as bland to me - they just don't excite the palate....but I know there are those who love them.

I've never experienced smoky at all....and don't ascribe any particular flavor descriptions to the purples or browns that I wouldn't use for some reds, pinks, whites, yellows, etc - you get the picture.

Oddly, the very first time I grew Black Krim in 1990 - obtained from a Swedish SSE member - was also the first year I grew Cherokee Purple (before I named it...it was unnamed purple from J D Green that year!). They looked very similar in size and color. Cherokee Purple had a full, balanced, delicious flavor with sweet and tart notes in good balance, and with good, intense tomatoey flavor. Black Krim was shocking in contrast - essentially no sweetness at all, quite flat, and I actually used the term "salty"! In Black Krim samples I've tried since - at Tomatopalooza, for example - it is clear to me that Black Krim has gone through some changes since that very first accession. Different size, very different flavor.

Barbee · April 25, 2011

Craig you are right about Lucky Cross for sure. I am not a yellow/red bi-color fan at all but that is one rockin tomato!

PaulF · April 25, 2011

Years ago when I was trying to kick the full strength soda habit, I described Diet Coke as tasting like shoe polish smelled. My first impression of a fully ripe, juicy, delicious Cherokee Purple (circa 1999) thanks to Craig, was that it had a sweet smokey flavor. Not a forest fire smoke, but like a really nice BBQ when some exotic wood chips were being heated to give an apple smoke flavor to a good steak. Or maybe the smokey flavor of an excellent wine aged in a wooden cask where the inside had been charred to suggest a hint of smoke. Or an aged whiskey from a similar barrel.

Back to the diet coke: the flavor of shoe polish, now that's a spitter. Kerosene flavored tomatoes are also spitters. I've never tasted kerosene, but a tomato that tastes like kerosene smells describes a couple I have grown. The tomatoes my Dad grew in the 50's and 60's were so tart we had to put sugar on them to gag them down. We didn't want to make him feel bad about his pride and joys.

So anything that does not invoke the gag reflex or burn the inside of the mouth I consider mild. I will continue to express my subjective palate with the words sweet, fruity, smokey and keroseney. My kerosene may just be someone else's heaven.

barkeater · April 25, 2011

I'm with Craig, mild is just a nicer term than bland. And about the smokey flavor, I recently experienced it, but just once, on one of my black tomatoes, and it definitely did have a smokehouse taste. I haven't tasted it since.

texasweed · April 25, 2011

For me milder means less acid or tartness.

roper2008 · April 25, 2011

My opinion of mild is having some flavor, but not very strong. Better than
bland. One that comes to mind as a mild flavor is citron compact, and I
liked it.

tjg911 · April 25, 2011

to me mild means bland, period. i like strongly flavored tomatoes especially sweet tomatoes. i've grown several mild tomatoes and learned to avoid any tomato that is called mild but that's my preference, some no doubts like mild tomatoes.

the year of the great blight (2009) my cherokee purple had a salty taste that i never tasted in any of the many seasons i've grown them. the seeds were from tgs and were used in several seasons yet this one year this one seed produced this taste. i saved seeds but last year they were not salty, trying again this year from that save seed.

tom

Sunsi · April 25, 2011

Interesting thread, organichris, you beat me to it I had thought about this subject before.

Many of the descriptions presented at seed catalogs appear cut & paste but the ones where the person actually seemed to taste them and then write their own description stand out.

When reading through Carolyn's book for instance the descriptions are pure pleasure and make you want to try them all.

A few prime examples from Carolyn's book, "100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden":

Aunt Ginny's Purple - "luscious, on the sweet side, with complex undertones that linger"

Dr. Carolyn - "strong bursts of flavor, with a nice balance of sweet and tart"

Dr. Lyle - "deep, intensely rich, sweet" (that sold me, it's one of my top favorites now)

Druzba - "authoritative but balanced, just superb"

German Red Strawberry - "superior, complex, slightly sweet"

Manyel - "lemony, with a touch of sweetness"

Olena Ukrainian - "sweet yet tangy, with great depth, intense"

Polish C - "very full, complex, with a nice edge"

Do you get the impression that Carolyn had just taken a bite out of the tomato as she prepared to write her description--now, that's the way it should be done!

April 24, 2011	#1
organichris Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 630	What is meant by 'mild' flavor? So if someone were to describe a tomato as sweet or acidic, I can relate to that. If you say "tangy" I can dig that too, but if you say "mild" - and you're talking about tomatoes rather than peppers - I really don't know where you're coming from. My first inclination is to assume that this means the flavor is not that pronounced, in which case I am not interested in growing or eating it. That makes me think it's like a regular storebought tomato that has been picked green and gassed. But is that what folks really mean? I think it is important for us to clarify these adjectives because obviously we leave a lot open to interpretation otherwise, and taste is subjective enough as it is. Someone started a similar thread about what is meant by "old-fashioned" or "old-timey flavor" and it seemed that several folks wanted to weigh in on that one. What became apparent to me in that thread is that people have a tendency to take ownership of a term and personalize it so that it really becomes devoid of any actual meaning. And here is another one I have trouble with: "smokey".

April 24, 2011	#2
TZ-OH6 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Mid-Ohio Posts: 848	Here is an example. Yellow pear cherry tomato tastes pretty good compared to grocerystore flavorless/poor flavor tomatoes, but then if you take a bite of most any other cherry tomato the flavor of the yellow pear is washed away. I usually describe "Smokey" flavored varieties (e.g many blacks) as earthy, somewhat "mushroomy". I wouldn't call artificial grape or cherry flavor anything like the real thing, so we often have to go with somebody else's impression. Wine and whisky tastings are other things where imaginative impressions are the norm. Last edited by TZ-OH6; April 24, 2011 at 07:33 PM. Reason: addition

April 24, 2011	#3
Barbee Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 1,818	To me, mild means no tangy or zippy taste. The first tomato to come to mind when I think mild is Kellogg's Breakfast. Not my favorite tomato in the world but way better than the cardboard store boughts. Smoky hmm....the blacks to me are not necessarily earthy or smokey but more of an distinct aftertaste that stays in your mouth for awhile. __________________ *Barbee*

April 24, 2011	#5
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	In my opinion there is absolutely no way that one can define a tomato taste, not just b'c there are so many variables involved ranging from soil, weather in any given year, amendments used and on and on and so many more variables. The fact is that taste is both perceptual and personal and there's even a human genetic component involved. Since all tomatoes assessed for pH to date, withJet Star F1 being an exception, have been found to vary little as regards actual pH, there really is no such thing as an acidic tasting tomato. I prefer to use the term aggressive, or something similar. Smoky and salty as some refer to the so called black tomatoes? I've grown my share of blacks and have never experienced anything close to smokey or salty. Sweet? All depends on the person doing the tasting as to whether it's sweet to him or her. Mild? Could be seen as not much taste which is true for many of the so called whites, IMO, but someone might describe a variety as being mild and the next person disagreee with that strongly. Spicy, tart, citrusy? All have been used to describe tomato tastes but again, only the person tasting a variety might describe it that way and others might disagree strongly. Over 400 organic compounds regarding taste have been detected by mass spectroscopy in labs but the genes that direct the systhesis of those compounds remains unknown except for a couple of them/ And it's the specific blend of those taste genes that gives a spcific taste to a specific variety. That's why when someone asks how a variety performs and what it tastes like I usually say that only the person growing it can make those determinations. Just my opinion about the use of adjectives to describe tomato taste. __________________ Carolyn

April 24, 2011	#7
remy Buffalo-Niagara Tomato TasteFest™ Coordinator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Z6 WNY Posts: 2,354	When I use mild in a description, I'm like Barbee, there is no tangy or zippy flavor at all. I don't care for tomatoes like that. They taste bland to me, but not like a grocery store tomato that's a whole nother ball of wax. But some people don't care for tomatoes with tangy or zippy flavor. I've never tasted what I would consider a smoky flavor with tomatoes. Remy __________________ "I wake to sleep and take my waking slow" -Theodore Roethke Yes, we have a great party for WNY/Ontario tomato growers every year on Grand Island! Owner of The Sample Seed Shop

April 24, 2011	#8
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	I use the term mild when I am trying to be nice, and to avoid the use of "bland" (esp. when selling tomato seedlings - trying to be sensitive to differences in perception of flavor). So to you all, the large yellow/red bicolors (except for Lucky Cross) come across as bland to me - they just don't excite the palate....but I know there are those who love them. I've never experienced smoky at all....and don't ascribe any particular flavor descriptions to the purples or browns that I wouldn't use for some reds, pinks, whites, yellows, etc - you get the picture. Oddly, the very first time I grew Black Krim in 1990 - obtained from a Swedish SSE member - was also the first year I grew Cherokee Purple (before I named it...it was unnamed purple from J D Green that year!). They looked very similar in size and color. Cherokee Purple had a full, balanced, delicious flavor with sweet and tart notes in good balance, and with good, intense tomatoey flavor. Black Krim was shocking in contrast - essentially no sweetness at all, quite flat, and I actually used the term "salty"! In Black Krim samples I've tried since - at Tomatopalooza, for example - it is clear to me that Black Krim has gone through some changes since that very first accession. Different size, very different flavor. __________________ Craig

April 25, 2011	#9
Barbee Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 1,818	Craig you are right about Lucky Cross for sure. I am not a yellow/red bi-color fan at all but that is one rockin tomato! __________________ *Barbee*

April 25, 2011	#10
PaulF Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brownville, Ne Posts: 3,296	Years ago when I was trying to kick the full strength soda habit, I described Diet Coke as tasting like shoe polish smelled. My first impression of a fully ripe, juicy, delicious Cherokee Purple (circa 1999) thanks to Craig, was that it had a sweet smokey flavor. Not a forest fire smoke, but like a really nice BBQ when some exotic wood chips were being heated to give an apple smoke flavor to a good steak. Or maybe the smokey flavor of an excellent wine aged in a wooden cask where the inside had been charred to suggest a hint of smoke. Or an aged whiskey from a similar barrel. Back to the diet coke: the flavor of shoe polish, now that's a spitter. Kerosene flavored tomatoes are also spitters. I've never tasted kerosene, but a tomato that tastes like kerosene smells describes a couple I have grown. The tomatoes my Dad grew in the 50's and 60's were so tart we had to put sugar on them to gag them down. We didn't want to make him feel bad about his pride and joys. So anything that does not invoke the gag reflex or burn the inside of the mouth I consider mild. I will continue to express my subjective palate with the words sweet, fruity, smokey and keroseney. My kerosene may just be someone else's heaven. __________________ there's two things money can't buy; true love and home grown tomatoes.

April 25, 2011	#11
barkeater Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NE Kingdom, VT - Zone 3b Posts: 1,439	I'm with Craig, mild is just a nicer term than bland. And about the smokey flavor, I recently experienced it, but just once, on one of my black tomatoes, and it definitely did have a smokehouse taste. I haven't tasted it since. __________________ barkeater

April 25, 2011	#12
texasweed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: TX Posts: 20	For me milder means less acid or tartness.

April 25, 2011	#13
roper2008 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Virginia Bch, VA (7b) Posts: 1,337	My opinion of mild is having some flavor, but not very strong. Better than bland. One that comes to mind as a mild flavor is citron compact, and I liked it.

April 25, 2011	#14
tjg911 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: zone 5b northwest connecticut Posts: 2,570	to me mild means bland, period. i like strongly flavored tomatoes especially sweet tomatoes. i've grown several mild tomatoes and learned to avoid any tomato that is called mild but that's my preference, some no doubts like mild tomatoes. the year of the great blight (2009) my cherokee purple had a salty taste that i never tasted in any of the many seasons i've grown them. the seeds were from tgs and were used in several seasons yet this one year this one seed produced this taste. i saved seeds but last year they were not salty, trying again this year from that save seed. tom __________________ I need a hero I’m holding out for a hero ‘til the end of the night He’s gotta be strong And he’s gotta be fast And he’s gotta be fresh from the fight I need a hero I’m holding out for a hero ‘til the morning light He’s gotta be sure And it’s gotta be soon And he’s gotta be larger than life

April 25, 2011	#15
Sunsi Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: New York Outback 5b Posts: 107	Interesting thread, organichris, you beat me to it I had thought about this subject before. Many of the descriptions presented at seed catalogs appear cut & paste but the ones where the person actually seemed to taste them and then write their own description stand out. When reading through Carolyn's book for instance the descriptions are pure pleasure and make you want to try them all. A few prime examples from Carolyn's book, "100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden": Aunt Ginny's Purple - "luscious, on the sweet side, with complex undertones that linger" Dr. Carolyn - "strong bursts of flavor, with a nice balance of sweet and tart" Dr. Lyle - "deep, intensely rich, sweet" (that sold me, it's one of my top favorites now) Druzba - "authoritative but balanced, just superb" German Red Strawberry - "superior, complex, slightly sweet" Manyel - "lemony, with a touch of sweetness" Olena Ukrainian - "sweet yet tangy, with great depth, intense" Polish C - "very full, complex, with a nice edge" Do you get the impression that Carolyn had just taken a bite out of the tomato as she prepared to write her description--now, that's the way it should be done!