Mortage Lifter Quisenberry and VB Russia

[kygreg]

Anyone had experience with these? If so were any of the plants PL and not RL? I have small seedling of both that look like PL.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by kygreg

Anyone had experience with these? If so were any of the plants PL and not RL? I have small seedling of both that look like PL.

Amy Goldman was the one who first listed the Mortgage Lifter one and her entry in the 2011 Yearbook says RL.

I received seeds for VB Russia from Reinhard Kraft quite a few years ago and also SSE listed it and I think offered it in one of several of my first SASE seed offers here at Tville and it too is RL.

[kygreg]

Thanks Carolyn,

I knew from Tatiana's tomato base and/or the SSE yearbook that they were supposed to be RL. What I have appear to be PL. Maybe its my seed source or a mistake on my end. I do put seeds in germination cups one variety at a time and I transplant to the garden one variety at a time but crap happens.

I think I will let the MLQ grow out and see what it looks like. Not sure what I will do with VB Russia - replant or let grow.

[fortyonenorth]

kygreg - did you get VB Russia from my seed offer? I only grew one PL last year and that was Brandywine Cherry. An inadvertent cross would have produced RL in the F1 generation, so I don't think that's what happened. It could be a stray seed. BW Cherry produces little miniature pink beefsteaks, so if that's the case it will be obvious.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by kygreg

Thanks Carolyn,

I knew from Tatiana's tomato base and/or the SSE yearbook that they were supposed to be RL. What I have appear to be PL. Maybe its my seed source or a mistake on my end. I do put seeds in germination cups one variety at a time and I transplant to the garden one variety at a time but crap happens.

I think I will let the MLQ grow out and see what it looks like. Not sure what I will do with VB Russia - replant or let grow.

From your post it isn't clear to me if you're talking about the ML one being PL when it should be RL or the VB Russia being PL when it should be RL.

41 has just spoken to the VB Russia and what was the source of the MLQ that I think you think has PL foliage? If from a trade perhaps you can ask the person about it. They could have initially gotten it from Amy Goldman's listing for it which, well, I though Tania might have which year but she doesn't so now I'll try to find which year by plowing through some back yearbooks.

OK, she first listed it in the 2010 SSE YEarbook so someone could have gotten the seeds last Spring, grown it out last summer and perhaps if it is PL you could have received X pollinated seeds or even another normally PL variety.

And there is one commercial seed source listed at Tania's page who is selling the MLQ one, but new for 2011.

Time will tell.

[travis]

There are many Mortgage Lifter tomatoes. Some are listed in the SSE Yearbook, and some are not listed there. Same comment regarding Tatiana's Tomato Base. Similarly to Brandywine, Mortgage Lifter has attained such a mythological status that everyone wants to claim a connection or declare an allegiance to one line or another.

If you look here: http://www.liseed.org/brandy.html, you will find a photograph of a seed packet sent by Ben Quisenberry to Ken Ettlinger circa 1979. It contained seeds for three separate varieties of tomatoes: Mortgage Lifter, Brandywine, and Big Ben (aka Stump of the World).

I offer this information, which has been discussed many times before, because the title of this thread appears to indicate a question regarding "Mortgage Lifter Quisenberry." Is this the line of Mortgage Lifter about which Kygreg is asking?

I also offer this link because it's interesting that Ben Quisenberry advised Ken Ettlinger that he would recognize Brandywine plants, growing from the mix of 3 varietal seeds, by the different foliage, apparently referring to potato leaf form. That suggests the other two varieties in the same envelope were regular leaf varieties.

Now, isn't it interesting that Stump of the World now is potato leaf, and Mortgage Lifter comes in both regular and potato leaf forms?

If Amy Goldman was the first SSE member to list Mortgage Lifter in the Yearbook, when was that, and which line of Mortgage Lifter did she list?

[Heritage]

Greg,

I grew MLQ last year (from Amy's SSE offer) and got 100% RL. I bagged all the blossoms and saved seed. This year I planted 30 seeds from those and all were RL. I'm growing 6 plants each of the 4 Mortgage Lifter's I grow to compare taste and fruit set. I'm growing them in pots in an unheated greenhouse. So far, I'm not impressed with the fruit set on any of them compared to some of the other pink beefsteaks I'm growing along with them and under the same conditions. (Marianna's Peace, African Queen, Purple Brandy) The taste is going to have to be outstanding for me to add them to my yearly "must grow" list.

btw... I'm the commercial seed source Carolyn referenced above, and am also offering the seed through SSE (CA MC M). If you got the seed through either of those sources please let me know.

Steve

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

There are many Mortgage Lifter tomatoes. Some are listed in the SSE Yearbook, and some are not listed there. Same comment regarding Tatiana's Tomato Base. Similarly to Brandywine, Mortgage Lifter has attained such a mythological status that everyone wants to claim a connection or declare an allegiance to one line or another.

If you look here: http://www.liseed.org/brandy.html, you will find a photograph of a seed packet sent by Ben Quisenberry to Ken Ettlinger circa 1979. It contained seeds for three separate varieties of tomatoes: Mortgage Lifter, Brandywine, and Big Ben (aka Stump of the World).

I offer this information, which has been discussed many times before, because the title of this thread appears to indicate a question regarding "Mortgage Lifter Quisenberry." Is this the line of Mortgage Lifter about which Kygreg is asking?

I also offer this link because it's interesting that Ben Quisenberry advised Ken Ettlinger that he would recognize Brandywine plants, growing from the mix of 3 varietal seeds, by the different foliage, apparently referring to potato leaf form. That suggests the other two varieties in the same envelope were regular leaf varieties.

Now, isn't it interesting that Stump of the World now is potato leaf, and Mortgage Lifter comes in both regular and potato leaf forms?

If Amy Goldman was the first SSE member to list Mortgage Lifter in the Yearbook, when was that, and which line of Mortgage Lifter did she list?

No, Amy Goldman was not the first to list Mortgage Lifter in the YEarbook, far from it, but she was the first to list ML Q and did so in 2010.

There are many ML's noted in her book but seeds for many of them are not available b'c she got them from the SSE Collection, but the MLQ one is the only one she SSE listed.

[travis]

Understood. Thank you. Does she say in the 2010 listing who her source is, and can that source be traced back to Ben Quisenberry or Ken Ettlinger?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Heritage

Greg,

I grew MLQ last year (from Amy's SSE offer) and got 100% RL. I bagged all the blossoms and saved seed. This year I planted 30 seeds from those and all were RL. I'm growing 6 plants each of the 4 Mortgage Lifter's I grow to compare taste and fruit set. I'm growing them in pots in an unheated greenhouse. So far, I'm not impressed with the fruit set on any of them compared to some of the other pink beefsteaks I'm growing along with them and under the same conditions. (Marianna's Peace, African Queen, Purple Brandy) The taste is going to have to be outstanding for me to add them to my yearly "must grow" list.

btw... I'm the commercial seed source Carolyn referenced above, and am also offering the seed through SSE (CA MC M). If you got the seed through either of those sources please let me know.

Steve

Steve, right you are in being the sole source of seeds, to date, for MLQ and here's the page at Tania's site:

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...uisenberry%27s

many have gone before you in growing out the many Mortgage Lifters in the same season so they could directly compare them.

Ones with a name attached to them are not strains, they just have the name of the person attached who first listed the ML they grew in the Yearbook and most have found that there's essentially no difference between the ones they've grown in the same season.

A few others will tell you differently.

A true strain would have some subtle difference(s) from the original, but yet still be able to be IDed as the original. The problem here is that two two sources for the original are known. One is the more familiar Radiator Charlie one, Charlie Byles of Logan, VA and the other one is the one from the Estler family from 1923 which preceded the Charlie one.

I think that the Estler one is sufficently different to be called a strain and I like it best over the Charlie one and there's also a pale leaf one, from a mutation.

I'll be curious to know what you think of the tastes. As for me, I bought into the ML hype way back when I first joined SSE in 1989 but I think there are many many other large pink fruited varieties that taste much better, at least in my experience, growing where I do and growing my tomatoes the way I do.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

Understood. Thank you. Does she say in the 2010 listing who her source is, and can that source be traced back to Ben Quisenberry or Ken Ettlinger?

She says:

".. from IA SSE HF, Ben Quisenberry obtained seed from Bob Barnitz of West Virginia, SSE Tomato #9.

So as I suggested above, from the SSE HF Collection to which SSE members have no access, with few exceptions that are known.

On a semi-positive note HF has been listing more varieties from the Collection but most that I've seen are varieties that were once listed but then were not kept going in the Yearbook due to lack of relisting. And that's true of some that I listed back in the early 90's that are now reappearing.

[Heritage]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

As for me, I bought into the ML hype way back when I first joined SSE in 1989 but I think there are many many other large pink fruited varieties that taste much better, at least in my experience, growing where I do and growing my tomatoes the way I do.

I feel that way about the Brandywines. Thanks for the background info.

[fortyonenorth]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

So as I suggested above, from the SSE HF Collection to which SSE members have no access, with few exceptions that are known.

Woefully offtopic, I know, but why doesn't SSE make it's "private" collection more widely available - at least to members? Isn't that part of it's mission?

[travis]

When I was a member of SSE, and listed in the Yearbook, I got a few requests for seeds to put into the SSE collection, and I never saw SSE relist them in following years. I'm not saying they were heaven sent varieties or anything. I'm just saying they were good ones, unusual ones, ones that no one else had ever listed, and then they just disappeared into the SSE vault. I don't list anymore, am no longer a member, and really could care less at this point.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by fortyonenorth

Woefully offtopic, I know, but why doesn't SSE make it's "private" collection more widely available - at least to members? Isn't that part of it's mission?

THe mission of SSE was and is preservation of OP varieties of all kinds as well as tubers and bulbs and fruit trees ( scions) and more.

The vehicle that was chosen to do that was to create the Yearbook where folks could list and share varieties. For the first few years after SSE was started in 1975 varieties that were submitted were sent to other SSE members for growout and in the case of tomatoes, seed production. I have those early Yearbooks from 1975, 6 and 7, and believe me it was not a workable situation. Note; I Didn't join SSE until 1989 but have all the YEarbooks going back to 1975 except the 1982 one b'c at one time Craig LeHoullier and I had offered to get some of the errors out of the tomato section, but that never happened and with every increasing year more errors appear. But that's a separate topic that's not easily solved and has been addressed before..

I'm also of the opinion that the general SSE membership should NOT have open access to the varieties in the SSE collection. And now I'm talking not just about tomatoes. For many years and off and on those of us who were listed members were sent the going request price for varieties and asked to submit seeds for the Collection. many did and most returned the money, but it hasn't been done every year that new varieties appear in the YEarbook.

To open up what SSE holds in trust would be completely undoable from the sheer number of folks who would have to be hired to do that. More to the point is that a lot of varieties in the collection have been listed from year to year, going forward even from some of those listed in the first Yearbook in 1975.

As it is, the relist rate has been steadly declining and I think for several reasons. First, with the proliferation of so many commercial seed sources now quite a few SSE members look at the Yearbook as simply being another seed source and have no interest whatsoever in relisting for seed preservation sake, just getting seeds. pardon me, but not that different from folks who come to Tville just to get seeds and seldom if ever participate in the Community at large.

Due to the declining rate of relisting there are many SSE members who have stopped listing and some of those listed lots and lots of varieties. But why go through all the work of seed production, etc., when there are so few requests .

A listed member who lists lots of varieties usually gets the most requests b'c one SSE request form results in many varieties in return rather than separate request forms to several folks.

And for a period of years many listed members didn't realize that the suggested request prices did not have to follow the chart with SSE suggested prices, that they could set their own request prices. I and many others never asked for the requested prices which were beyond what someone would have to pay to get seeds elsewhere.

So it's a complicated question you ask and I'm afraid a complicated answer I'm giving.

Summary? No, I could not support opening up the entire collection to all SSE members. Accessions are grown out on a regular basis for seed viability but at any one time there would be varieties not available. perhaps the biggest reason is that economically SSE could never do it without hiring lots more persons, and that won't/can't happen.

I used to list many hundreds of tomato varieties thru the 90's up to the point in 2004 when I fell and could no longer grow what I used to grow in terms of numbers.

Right now Craig LeHoullier raises all my plants for me in NC and Lee and SHoe in NC help with seed production as does Neil in IL. I recieved few requests this year so why should I keep listing varieties and depending on others to help me with that situation.

I know several SSE members who have cut back on what they offer, it's a personal decision. And now I have to make that same decision myself. I get more feedback from my free SASE seed offer here at Tville than I ever did from SSE members, but of course I ASK for that feedback and also mention in each seed offer that I expect to get feedback on germination and then later in the summer I'll set up another one for feedback on comments about the varieties.

I think I'll just list for a couple of years more, my health and my friends depending, and then just let the listings run out as the seed age gets to about 5 yo.

Lots to think about for me and I know some others as well. And just my personal opinion above and perhaps there are other long time SSE members here who have some perspective that they might offer as well.

I still support the mission of SSE, but not necessarily all that SSE does, and there's some darn good germplasm in the tomato lisings as well.