flowers as a point of ident for varieties

t-ham · June 24, 2011

Good Morning All,

I was having a discussion with another villian and asked the question "Can flower structure, color, and/or petal quantity be used as any sort of constant identifier for a particular variety of tomato?". I noticed Tatiana posts pics of blossoms on many pages of her database and was wondering if the particular forms were stable within a variety or not. My friend recommended I throw the question up as a new post. I imagine the very nature of OP reproduction would seem to allow for great variety within a type but I was thinking that if a variety is stable enough to survive for decades or centuries,then maybe flower structure was both stable and unique to a variety.

A tip to a link would be great if the explanation would take too much of your time.

Thanks in advance,

Tom

**carolyn137** · June 24, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by t-ham

Good Morning All,

I was having a discussion with another villian and asked the question "Can flower structure, color, and/or petal quantity be used as any sort of constant identifier for a particular variety of tomato?". I noticed Tatiana posts pics of blossoms on many pages of her database and was wondering if the particular forms were stable within a variety or not. My friend recommended I throw the question up as a new post. I imagine the very nature of OP reproduction would seem to allow for great variety within a type but I was thinking that if a variety is stable enough to survive for decades or centuries,then maybe flower structure was both stable and unique to a variety.

A tip to a link would be great if the explanation would take too much of your time.

Thanks in advance,

Tom

Tom, I think those with extensive experience growing thousands of tomato varieties would be better than a link and quite frankly off hand I can't even think of a link that addresses what you're talking about here.

If a variety is stable then the blossom structure and color, etc., are also stable, but see below as to blossom color for a specific variety.

Blossoms are ivory colored, not a shade of yellow? Can that be used to ID a variety? No, b'c I know of several that have blossoms of that color.

Blossoms are megablossoms ( fused blossoms), particularly early in the season? No, not distinct b'c many vartieties do that.

Blossoms are a particular shade of yellow? No, b'c depending on several variables the blossoms of a particular variety are known to show subtle color changes, usually environmental.

Blossoms have a certain number of petals? I can only speak for myself and no way have I ever attempted to count petal numbers but I've found it to be true that different varieties do have different petal numbers, just by observation, but I can't see how that would allow for specific ID of a specific variety.

Blossoms hang down instead of facing upwards? Not specific enough IMO b'c there are reasons why that happens that have nothing to do with the genetics of a specific variety.

About the only trait that I can think of this early in the morning are those varieties that have the crimson gene where the petals are supposed to have a gold stripe on the petals. I've grown the variety High Crimson and didn't see that and it's not specific anyway b'c there are other varieties that have the crimson gene.

Interesting question and I wonder what others are going to post.

dice · June 25, 2011

It is likely that there is genetic influence that shows itself in blossom
variation, but the range of uniquely different values for color, number
of petals. and other blossom characteristics is so small that is not
likely to be especially useful. With year to year variations due to weather,
etc, that range is even less useful. About the only thing that one might
be able to conclude from looking at blossoms is that a particular plant
is not some variety that is known to invariably have exerted pistils that
protrude beyond the anthers (or known to never have exerted pistils
when looking at a plant that does have them).

You still cannot tell what it is, only for sure that it is not some particular
cultivar if that trait does not match.

t-ham · June 27, 2011

Carolyn, dice,

Thanks for the answers. It's about what I expected but you never know what a question might launch.
Many times diagnostics is not trying to prove what something is, but ruling out what it is not, so that the possible answers can be reduced to a manageable number. In view of that line of approach, dice's answer shows the value(sort of in negative) of the idea.
I guess the world of OPs is not yet amenable to being neatly classified and pigeonholed. Sort of like the "herding cats" idea.

dice · June 27, 2011

Whether a cultivar's flowers have exerted pistils or not is not usually
described anywhere online. Only people who have grown it before
and taken a close interest in the flowers would know whether a particular
variety has them or not.

June 24, 2011	#1
t-ham Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2011 Location: rockland county, ny, usa Posts: 36	flowers as a point of ident for varieties Good Morning All, I was having a discussion with another villian and asked the question "Can flower structure, color, and/or petal quantity be used as any sort of constant identifier for a particular variety of tomato?". I noticed Tatiana posts pics of blossoms on many pages of her database and was wondering if the particular forms were stable within a variety or not. My friend recommended I throw the question up as a new post. I imagine the very nature of OP reproduction would seem to allow for great variety within a type but I was thinking that if a variety is stable enough to survive for decades or centuries,then maybe flower structure was both stable and unique to a variety. A tip to a link would be great if the explanation would take too much of your time. Thanks in advance, Tom __________________ An analog man trapped in a digital world.

June 25, 2011	#3
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	It is likely that there is genetic influence that shows itself in blossom variation, but the range of uniquely different values for color, number of petals. and other blossom characteristics is so small that is not likely to be especially useful. With year to year variations due to weather, etc, that range is even less useful. About the only thing that one might be able to conclude from looking at blossoms is that a particular plant is not some variety that is known to invariably have exerted pistils that protrude beyond the anthers (or known to never have exerted pistils when looking at a plant that does have them). You still cannot tell what it is, only for sure that it is not some particular cultivar if that trait does not match. __________________ -- alias

June 27, 2011	#4
t-ham Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2011 Location: rockland county, ny, usa Posts: 36	Carolyn, dice, Thanks for the answers. It's about what I expected but you never know what a question might launch. Many times diagnostics is not trying to prove what something is, but ruling out what it is not, so that the possible answers can be reduced to a manageable number. In view of that line of approach, dice's answer shows the value(sort of in negative) of the idea. I guess the world of OPs is not yet amenable to being neatly classified and pigeonholed. Sort of like the "herding cats" idea. __________________ An analog man trapped in a digital world.

June 27, 2011	#5
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	Whether a cultivar's flowers have exerted pistils or not is not usually described anywhere online. Only people who have grown it before and taken a close interest in the flowers would know whether a particular variety has them or not. __________________ -- alias