Topping a plant to prevent BER?

[m3k1]

Hello. I've been posting at the "other" site, but I wanted to ask this question here as it seems like all the real gurus are here!

I have four tomatoes in containers. An Early Girl, San Diego, and a Brandywine in 10 gallon containers, and a Siberia in a 5-7 gallon. I water daily, and fertilize them weekly with and 18-18-21 water soluble tomato food.

The plants seem to be fairly healthy, and have set fruit, but most of it has BER. Now, I've read all the threads over at the other site about BER, and it just seems like it is a losing battle for me, what with all the different possible causes. I had BER last time I planted toms in the ground (plus disease), so I tried containers this time (I knew it increased the BER risk, but I thought the diseases would be better managed in containers).

Okay, on to my question (finally!). Would "topping" the plants help to reduce the BER on the developing fruit? I don't mean the ones that already have it, I know those are goners. I mean the ones that don't show signs of it yet.

I thought if the plant itself was drawing calcium away from the fruit, maybe if the plant load wasn't so big, more calcium would be available to the fruit. My plants are in cages and I haven't pruned them at all. My fear in trying this is that the plant wouldn't have enough resources (leaf surface to produce energy) to develop and ripen the existing fruit. Or that it would shock the plants and they would just "shut down".

I don't really care if these plants set any more fruit. All I care about is getting some kind of harvest out of what's already there.

Sorry for the long post. I appreciate any advice you can give me.

Michelle

[landarc]

I am not a beleiver in the theory that BER is always solved by adding calcium, or that the plant is 'pulling' too much calcium away from fruit production. I thjink it is that you are over fertilizing and possibly over-watering. You are using a pretty high rate of nitrogen, really, NPK across the board. Also, are you checking to make sure that your soil is draining well and getting a little dry between waterings?

I suspect that your plants are being fed too much, producing too much foliar growth possibly, and that is causing the plant to focus on foliar growth as opposed to reproduction. For me, once I see a plant starting to ripen fruit, I cut back to a very dilute organic seafood or vermitea mixture once every two weeks.

[m3k1]

I've considered that I might be overwatering, but if I give my plants a light watering in the morning (about 1/2 gallon of water), by mid afternoon they are dry again and completely wilted over. I have tried to give them a good soaking instead a little later in the morning, to try to tide them over until about 4:00 when they start to receive some shade. But, that doesn't always work, either. My guess is the BER is more likely due to uneven watering than overwatering, but with all the possibilities, it's hard to isolate one factor.

BTW, that's why I have been using the fert. once a week. I figure I'm washing out any nutrients in the mix because of all the water. Should I switch to a 15-30-15?

Also, the pH of my water is high, over 8.4 (the highest the strip test went). I've had someone tell me that shouldn't cause any problems, and I would believe that if the plants were in the ground. But since my plants are in containers, I assume the water pH would have an effect on them, but what that effect is, I don't know. Any thoughts? I've done some research on the 'net, but I can't find anything that specifically addresses the effect of water pH on potted plants.

Thanks again!

[Deer Park]

I don't fertilize after the plants are about 18"tall and I don't have many fruits with BER and every year I plant 250 to 400 plants.

I would suggest you use drip emitters to water and reduce your fertilizer.

Michael

[landarc]

Another way to water, minus the drip emitters, which I do use an automated drip system. But, I get most of my irrigation stuff for free, as part of my job is irrigaton specification on major street and park jobs. Man, I love samples.

Anyway, you can always use a watering dish under the pot with a measured amount of water each day, so that the dish is empty by nightfall, but, I prefer to take a one gallon container (recycled milk or juice jugs) pop a small hole using a heated paper clip end and fill with water in the morning. It will take a couple hours to drain. A small investemnt in some 1/8" barbed tees (jabbed into the jug) and some Fiskars 1/8" soaker tubing and you can distribute the water around the plant. Water will be available through the morning. It does sound like you are not over watering. A half gallon jug, fille morning and early evening can do the same and even water distribution in a container situation.

[m3k1]

Thanks Michael and Bob.

I'm trying to do this the budget way, but it's not very frugal, money- or time-wise, when you end up with nothing to show for your efforts! I have looked at several systems online and at the big box stores, and I'm not sure I'm ready to shell out for that yet.

Bob, when you use the plastic cartons, do you just set them directly on the soil? Or do you partially bury it? I have read how some people use them upside down, with the spout end in the ground, and the bottom cut off for filling. Can both the cartons and a saucer on the bottom be used, or would that amount to overwatering?

Still looking for someone to comment on my question about topping the plant. If I have overfertilized and caused an overgrowth of foliage vs fruit, would it be advantageous to remove some of said foliage to bring the plant into balance and reduce the occurance of BER?

Michelle (always grateful for ANY advice someone can offer me!)

[landarc]

I do not use them upside down, the hole is too big. I just set them on the soil, or hang them on a stake for this use. Right side up. You could do both jug and dish, as long as the dish is dry before the evening. I wouldn't though.

As for budget, I have been using the same drip line and emitters for a couple of years now. They should last for many years. There are drip systems installed n commercial projects I did ten years ago still working fine. Long term, they can be quite a value, although I recognize it is a one time lump sum that many wouldn't be able to freely spend.

As for topping, reducing the foliage mass might help if the problem truly is too much foliar growth. I might try pinching and pruning as opposed to topping. There must be some side branches and such that would be good to remove anyway.

[carolyn137]

I can't see how topping plants would help since it's a maldistribution of Ca++ already in the plant that causes the problem, either by altered transpiration or a supply and demand problem.

What's the composition of what you have in the containers? So often it's an artificial mix that has essentially no minerals/micronutrients at all and if you don't specifically add Ca++ to pot grown plants that may be a problem.

General fertilizers simply don't have a high content of Ca++.

[feldon30]

I was going to suggest some pellets of garden lime with calcium.

[m3k1]

Carolyn,

I've sensed your absence at the "other" site. I'm glad to find you here!

I only used one "soil" in my containers: OSH Ready to Use Potting Soil (Manufactured by Sun Land Garden Products, Inc.).

Ingredients: Redwood and fir products*, peat moss, sand and perlite. *Ground bark and wood fiber

Guaranteed Analyses:
Total Nitrogen (N)*.........0.19%
0.00002 Nitrate Nitrogen
0.11000 Water Soluble Nitrogen
0.08000 Water Insoluble Nitrogen
Available Phosphoric Acid (P2O5)......0.20%
Soluble Potash (K2O).....0.06%
Iron (Fe)......0.21%

Derived from: Sulfur coated urea, potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate, monodicalcium phosphate, ferrous sulfate

*Contains 0.84% slow release nitrogen derived from sulfur coated urea

Also contains non-plant food ingredient:
0.0185% wetting agent: polyoxyethylen of alkalated phenols

_________________________________________

This is my first year growing in containers, so any advice anyone can give me about the proper "mix" to use, I'd appreciate it. I have read some of the posts on the container forum at GW on how to make your own, but it seemed a little daunting and I have yet to find a store where I can find bulk quantities of things like perlite or peat moss at reasonable prices (I'm in a suburban area, not a huge amount of farming going on around here, mostly surfing!). I'm sure what I'm using isn't optimal; is there anything I can do to amend this mix? I realize it's probably too late to do anything about the plants I have. Should I just cut bait and get new mix (or at least, amended mix) and plants in my pots? I still have time, I think, to get another crop in where I live (SoCal, zone 10, Sunset Zone 23/24).

Many thanks to you all! How would I have done this 15 years ago without the 'net?

[m3k1]

Hi Feldon,

Where can I find the pellets? Are they available at places like HD, Lowes, WM, etc? Any specific brand? Anyone have experience with these pellets? Is it something I can add now as a fix for any fruit yet to come? Or should I use it in the soil as an amendment before planting the next round of plants? Am I asking too many questions?

[landarc]

Now, I am not being argumentative here, but, I thought that in many cases, the maldistribution of lime can be from an excess of foliar growth, is this not true? That excessive leaf and stem growth after fruit starts to set can cause more calcium to be used for overall plant growth than fruit development. If so, wouldn't reducing growing leaders on the plant reduce this?

I have read, and of course, with tomato lit. on the 'net, this could be wrong, but, that BER is often caused, not by a lack of calcium in the soil, so much as calcium being present but, not being utilized in the most desirable, for humans, manner by the plant (that is a horrible sentence isn't it)

[m3k1]

Bob makes a point that I think is valid, and that's why I asked the question about topping (or pruning, but I was thinking mainly about stopping the top foliar growth). The way I was thinking (and someone, please set me straight if I am wrong, the whole reason I am here is to learn!) was to divert the calcium that would have gone to the foliage to the fruit.

I was thinking along those lines because of what I had read about BER and what seemed to be commonly believed about it; that is, a)that the plant usually has access to enough calcium, b)it can't distribute it properly (due to many different possible factors, including excess vegetative growth), and c)the problem usually goes away without intervention once the plant matures (which I assume to mean it has finished its main vegetative growth). In terms of supply and demand, the supply of calcium to the fruit is low because the plant's other parts demand so much. If the part of the plant demanding so much calcium is removed (stems, foliage), more would be available to the fruit.

I could be WAY off here, and if I am, I hope someone corrects me. I too am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn!

If someone could take a look at my previous post and tell me if my potting soil has enough (if any) calcium in it, that would help me a lot. I have read that it's pointless to add calcium to the soil tomatoes are planted in (even at planting time), but maybe that just applies to in-ground plants? Is it a common practice to add calcium to potting mixes used for tomatoes? Here I go again with the questions!

BTW, I wouldn't consider topping a plant that wasn't suffering BER. Also, I would think this approach would work better with a determinate variety, as an indeterminate would have an opportunity to mature and still produce more fruit. What chance is there for a determinate plant that has BER to produce any non-affected fruit? I'm just trying to get ONE tasty tomato! (they need to make a "frustrated" smiley)

[timcunningham]

Sorry if someone else already said this above, I only browsed the replies. I do want to share my experience this year with BER and containers. I overfertilzed I admit it. In response I pulled out the pelletized fertilzer. I found that in time the BER goes away. The soil uses up the extra nitrogen, the soil stablizes and the rest of the tomatoes are fine.