Brandywine..dare I ask

[Jeannine Anne]

I have been reading all over here about "Brandywines" and if I have it right , some different names are the same thing..not sure.

Last night I was going through seeds and wondered why I have so many if they are the same fruit under different names.

Can anyone tell me please , if what I have are wrongly named and if so what should I call them. I intend to grow these for transplants in our community garden next year and don't want to be confusing anyone especially as some I have not grown myself.

It is very frustrating. I have:

Brandywine
Brandywine Black
Brandywine OTV
Brandywine Pink
Brandywine Red,Landis Valley Strain
Brandywine Red Potato Leaf
Brandywine Red Regular Leaf
Brandywine Suduths Strain
Brandywine True Black
Brandywine White
Brandywine Yellow
Brandywine Yellow Platfoot Strain
Brandywine Cowlicks

I don't want to decieve anyone who gets transplants but I don't want to be trying to explain all the history etc to gardeners who just want tomato plants..so frustrated I feel like chucking the lot.. sorry but I have a very tidy mind, so rather than chuck them I thought they could go as transplants but not sure what to call them .

Could I lump some together under 1 name and cut down the "varieties".

Any help appreciated

XX Jeannine

[fortyonenorth]

At a glance, most of those on your list are distinct varieties and should NOT be lumped together. "Brandywine" is a notable exception and it's hard to say what it refers to. Also, I'm not familiar with White Brandywine so I can't comment on that one.

Most of these listed at Tania's site and many have detailed histories so you can see how they became named varieties.

[delltraveller]

Generally anything called simply "Brandywine" is the pink, potato leaved variety. Brandywine Pink should be the same as Brandywine. Sudduth's and Cowlick's are particular selected strains of Brandywine. Those four could all be grouped together and called simply "Brandywine".

[greyghost]

Jeannine, I think there's a detailed history somewhere on T'Ville about
Cowlick Brandywine (I remember Ami posting a link in a Cowlick seed offer
during the fall of '09). Camochef had purchased a plant/plants at "Cowlicks
Nursery" in MD as either Brandywine or Pink Brandywine. He felt the fruit
and production was slightly superior to Brandywine so distributed seed
as Cowlick (Brandywine). I've grown both Sudduth and Cowlick and do
feel there's a slight difference in taste and fruit size.

I give away a lot of plants also; people really enjoy a bit of history (and the
names!!). I'm always a bit stumped when it comes to Cowlick; I don't feel
quite correct in saying it's Brandywine or that it's a result of a cross. I just
say it's very similar to Brandywine, Sudduth that I also grow from time to time.
It seems to be very consistent; I get the same result every year but as I write
out the ID tag, I always wonder. Camo distributed seed as Cowlick Brandywine so that's what it's called. I think it's even a bit of a mystery to
Camo but having bought the plant with an ID tag of Brandywine.....

[delltraveller]

The Brandywine Yellow and Yellow Platfoot Strain could be grouped together as Brandywine Yellow. Regular leaf is the correct form for true Brandywine Red. The Red and the Landis Strain could be grouped together.

[delltraveller]

Brandywine OTV is a de-hybridized natural cross of Yellow Brandywine and an unknown red. Carolyn Male did the de-hybridizing and she and Craig LeHoullier named and released it in 1996.

[Ruth_10]

An alternative to having to explain the differences of the varieties would be to make a single page handout with a sentence or two about each.

[Jeannine Anne]

Thank you for all the help, it is indeed a frustration The White Brandywine came form Amishland a few years ago, at that time she called it three things, Mikado, Shah or White Brandywine so I think it could be anything.

It would appear that the Red regular leaf is the odd one, I have read all Tanias descriptions now and also Craig's Brandywine and Company. I think this one is maybe the same as the Landis Valley strain as I believe it is also regular leaf , lump those maybe?

It would also seems the True Black and Black are probably one and the same so I could probably lump those together ?.

The one I have called simply Brandywine I have grown and kept seeds for , is identical to Tanias description so I am comfortable with that one and I have also grown the Sudduths strain one and according to my notes saw little if any difference except one year yeild was better with the Sudduths one but that could have been the weather etc. So perhaps could lump those two together or do one for transplants (Landis valley) and keep the other back for myself for the future.

OTV is red so that one could stand alone.

The two yellows , one is supposed to be rounder so not sure what to do there.

Cowlicks I have just got so perhaps not growing that one to share anyway .

Does the above make sense,

XX Jeannine

[tam91]

The "correct" Red Brandywine is regular leaf, not potato leaf.

TGS sells the "real" Red Brandywine as "Landis Strain". That name is not really correct I believe, but that is the real Red Brandywine variety.

TGS also sells a potato-leaf version, and also a regular-leaf tomato they call just Red Brandywine regular leaf. Neither of these are the original/real/correct Red Brandywine.

So the one you have called "Landis Strain" is probably the correct one.

If you got the Red Brandywine, regular leaf from TGS, it is not the correct one. If you got it elsewhere, I don't know.

[nctomatoman]

It's actually not all that hard.

the following 3 are the true heirloom varieties with some longevity, history and legitimacy!

Brandywine - pink, large, potato leaf. Very likely related to the very first commercial PL pink, Mikado (or Turner's Hybrid), but can't be sure

Red Brandywine - red, medium, regular leaf. Very likely is or related to the Brandywine released by Johnson and Stokes in the 1880s.

Yellow Brandywine - pale orange or deep yellow (we all describe color differently!)....pumpkin color (wait - pumpkins are all kinds of colors) - large, potato leaf. Likely similar to or possibly related to a Henderson variety known as Shah, available just briefly in the 1880s and called a sister variety to Mikado.

Now you get into "selections", "strains", etc - which really makes it muddled, esp. when discussing Brandywine (the pink PL one). Sudduth strain really isn't a strain - it just points to where Ben Quisenberry first got Brandywine.

Also legit but not an heirloom is Brandywine OTV - a variety that Carolyn stabilized from a cross between Yellow Brandywine and who knows what - the origin is crossed seed that another seed saver was sent by me - he returned saved seed, it went to Carolyn, and off she went to work on, stabilize and name it. Potato leaf, large and red.

What is not an heirloom is Black Brandywine, which was a genetic mess upon release - mix of PL and RL, all sorts of sizes. So I suspect many people selected all sorts of things out of it.

There really is no White Brandywine - there was some inaccurate assumptions and conclusions that went into that name. A variety called Potato Leaf White has been passed around the SSE for years. It is not clear what its origin is.

I've not yet seen a red fruited potato leaf version from any seed called Brandywine - my assumption is that it is a pink fruit that is being mis-called red due to confusion about red vs pink.

[travis]

Take all the pink fruited, potato leaf varieties on your list, pour all the seeds into one bucket, add some seeds for Earl's Faux and Marianna's Peace, shake the bucket vigorously, scoop out 25 - 30 seeds at a time, seal them in individual packets, and tell the recipients of your gift seeds to grow four or five plants each summer from that packet, and let you know what they think.

There's not two cents difference between those two yellow Brandywines on your list, in my opinion, but if you give those plants or seeds to someone, you might want to tell them to grow at least 4 plants in order to get enough tomatoes at one time to make a mess. And even then, it will be a short span of very late season yield. KBX would be a better choice, and basically indistinguishable by fruit or leaf shape.

No matter how many different names Amishland Lisa gives that pale yellow "Shah Mikado" thing, don't bother. It's a weak plant and a fairly tasteless tomato.

And for a red Brandywine type, I'd take the Landis strain, cross it with Druzba, and call the resulting hybrid something like Lower Slobovian Brandywine. I would be a great tomato, though.

[greyghost]

Ruth's idea of a few sentences about each variety is excellent. I do try to
do that; my friends say they love it. I give about 50 plants to my son-in-law
to give to his employees. I provide a sheet with fruit color and a bit of
history-he says they look over it for a couple of days. I usually grow 30+
varieties and there're just a few ofeach variety. They're especially interested
in varieties from home states such as Akers W. VA, Tenn. Britches, Lancaster
County Pink (PA, where they live). Brad Gates Wild Boar Farm varieties are always a big hit. It's especially helpful to tell them when those varieties are
ripe (like Porkchop-ready when the green stripes turn gold!).

The bottom line is that they all like free plants but the variety of heirlooms
in appearance and taste along with their rich history makes it a lot of fun
and just a little more exciting.

[carolyn137]

Watching tennis for the US Open so came to the party late. Most has been answered so I'll be brief/


Brandywine is pink so Brandywine Pink is redundant

Brandywine Black, there are two of them. the first occurred in the growing fields of Seeds by Design and offered by TGS. it turned out to be a mess, as Craig noted, and Linda at TGS pulled the listing quite a few years ago. The second is called True Black Brandywine, named by WWW and most folks who have grown it seem to like it. Please see the Legacy Forum for a thread on this variety and the problems involved such as how "true" it might be.

Brandywine OTV, has been described. Craig and I named it for the international newsletter on heirlooms that we were co-publishing at the time called Off The Vine.

Brandywine Pink, redundant

Brandywine Red,Landis Valley Strain, not a strain, there are no strains of RB. Just the place that Linda Sapp at TGS got her RB. TOm Hauch of Heirloom Seeds in PA was the first to get RB from the SSE YEarbook and offer it commercially and it was he who sent seeds to Steve Miller at the Landis Museum and it was Steve who got the history on RB/

Brandywine Red Potato Leaf, no such thing, discussed above
Brandywine Red Regular Leaf, ditto for this one and the one above, both listed at TGS, wrong seeds from Seeds by Design but Linda keeps listing them b'c many folks like them. Neither one is RB.

Brandywine Suduths Strain, aka Sudduth/Quisenberry strain, seeds to Ben Quisenberry from Doris Sudduth Hill.

Brandywine True Black, I discussed this one above along with Black Brandywine

Brandywine White, no such thing. Thou shalt avoid Amishland in general

Brandywine Yellow, one of the three family Brandywines
Brandywine Yellow Platfoot Strain, I named it the Platfoot strain b'c it isn't identical to the above, my seeds from Gary Platfoot of OH/

Brandywine Cowlicks, discussed above, not a strain, just named by Camo from the Nursery where he bought the plants.

And you forgot Purple Brandywine which was bred by Joe Bratka but he didn't say that at first. I got him to change the name to Marizol Bratka and that's the name that should be used. Why the Marizol? B'c Marizol Purple was the other parent in his initial cross. Unfortunately Joe had already sent out seeds as Purple Brandywine so both names are in use at some sites. AlSo, he was representing it as an heirloom which it's not and nor are many others that he's introduced as heirloom varieties.

The above are most of the large fruited ones but there are so called strains, which aren't and also quite a few smaller fruited ones with Brandywine as part of the name.

I have to share with you that another site this AM I really did write a long post about the obsession with Brandywines, primarily Brandywine itself. Never have I seen as much hype and PR for any other variety. Does it taste good? Sure does in a good year. Does it yield well? For some yes, for some no, and the place where it doesn't usually perform weel is in the deep south where it's hot and humid/ IS the taste unique? it is for Brandywine but there are other varieties where I think the taste is unique and one would be Prue.

Am I the Prez of the anti-Brandywine Assoc of the US? Well I once was but I'm not anymore but Brandywine isn't the be all and end all of tomato varieties as some seem to think and how could they help but think that with all the hype and PR that's thrown around at message sites, books, magazines, the net in general, take your pick.

Hope that helps. and now back to tennis.

[Jeannine Anne]

Thanks all, I think I know whta to do now.

Carolyn you made me laugh today, I think when these seeds are gone, they are gone..I can't be doing with all this confusion... I think I will just keep the one I know and the others can become history..too much brain power needed to do this. At least some folks can grow them on and they probably really won't care what they are called.

I hate muddles.

maybe I should chuck out all the Mortgage Lifters too

XX Jeannine

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Jeannine Anne

Thanks all, I think I know whta to do now.

Carolyn you made me laugh today, I think when these seeds are gone, they are gone..I can't be doing with all this confusion... I think I will just keep the one I know and the others can become history..too much brain power needed to do this. At least some folks can grow them on and they probably really won't care what they are called.

I hate muddles.

maybe I should chuck out all the Mortgage Lifters too

XX Jeannine

Yes, I do think you should chuck out most of the Mortgage Lifter so called strains , with few exceptions, and grow some new stuff that has been demuddled.

There are quite a few folks who have grown many ML's in the same season and see little to no difference.

BTW, you also forgot Brandywine ( Pawer's), perhaps the best Brandywine ever b'c it was bred from a typo.

it was listed by Roger Wentling of PA as just Brandywine which makes his SSE code PA WE R and due to a rather unfortunate typo his SSE code became a so called strain.



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