So I'm planning 2012, and one thing is driving me nuts...

lakelady · September 28, 2011

WHY oh WHY .... do they state "days" as a point of reference from planting out date? Why not go from date of seeding? What if I keep my seedlings indoors for 8 weeks, and john keeps his indoors for 4? Should we expect the same DTM then? Who thought of this? Was there a reason ? To me, and I know I'm just one lonesome person here, it would make more sense to state days to maturity (or fruit) as days from seeding. I'm having difficulty keeping track of all these things !

Oh, and since I mentioned it, are the "days" supposed to be days to flowering, days to fruit set, days to mature fruits? I never thought about it before really.

Never mind the fact that websites can differ tremendously in DTM (if that is what it is called in tomato talk)...the same variety is stated 70 days on one website and another is 85-90. wonder why I'm confused? lol

Yes, there was one more thing since I'm on a roll ..

... why on earth would someone name a tomato Earlibell if it takes 86 days from planting out? To me that says late season, yet it's supposed to be early. Sounds misleading to me, or is 86 days early to someone? sheesh.... I don't know that I'll ever be able to get my "plan" for 2012 finished based on the dates and trying to figure out when I'll start what.

Elizabeth · September 28, 2011

LOL. You sound a bit....frustrated. Funny thing is, just in the last hour I was wondering the same thing about transplant sizes impacting maturity date. I planted some seedlings under lights in August that were potted up to 4" pots, but I had to go out of town for a week before I could get them in the garden. I put them in 2 gallon pots outside until I could get to them - the darn things are huge now - I'm talking 3' high tomato plants I'm trying to get transplanted here. They are a bit unwieldy and it's taking forever! I sure hope the date to maturity is 4-6 weeks after seeding like a transplant is supposed to be, and not the date they finally get in their final home

86 days is not early - maybe they named it after their wife, or cow, that sure sounds like a cow's name.

The days to maturity differing - I always figure that depends on where they are growing it so I look at the location of the seed company - of course if they are the kind that gets theirs from a broker, who knows. You might try Tatiana's Tomato database - you get a mix of people posting there so you may be able to get a better idea for the real DTM. Dave's Garden is another resource for tracking down details on a plant.

lakelady · September 28, 2011

LOL Elizabeth! A cow, yep, I thought of that too ! I dunno, I got all these seeds, and I've been so excited thinking about next year, and how I'm going to be more organized and have "a plan". Since I have little sun, and have to break up my plants into different parts of my yard, some will be in containers, some in ground. I even made up a graph of how many plants I can fit in where. So when it came to making a list, and checking it twice, I wanted to have some early, some mid season, some late, some determinates, some indeterminates. I always plant late season tomatoes and get nothing until late August. I thought I'd get really on top of it until I started counting days and completely befuddled myself lol....

whoa, your plants got to 3' in one week? sheesh. And here I thought 1" in a week was pretty good under my lights ! I'll have to look at the Tomatobase again. I got a bit lost with all the varieities I've been looking at.

All I know is, I've made more spreadsheets lately for tomatoes than I care to mention and I'm still feeling like I'm missing something.

My favorite is when a description says very good flavor. What does that mean? Is it sweet, salty, earthy, acidic? One of the plants i've got indoors (I know, it's too big for indoors, but there I've got it) is Ailsa Craig and I hear it has "great flavor" but it seems more popular in Britain than over here. Supposed to be good in a greenhouse, so I'm hoping it grows well indoors.

I'm not usually this obsessive...really !

Raffles · September 28, 2011

The "DTM" count means good growing days. We don't get many of those in a row up here as a rule.

As for Earlibell, think of Greenland. It's all about marketing.

**carolyn137** · September 28, 2011

DTM's are sheer guesstimates and are supposed to indicate the time from setting out plants to first ripe fruits.

In Europe they do indicate the days from starting seed to first ripe fruit but I think it makes more sense to go from setting outside since there are far more variables that can impact growth and fruit maturation than there are variables associated with raising seedlings.

I laugh when I see a DTM of say, 72 days. What I use is a range of days when indicating what I mean by early, midseason and late. And I indicated them in my book and also suggested to Glenn Drowns at Sandhill to do the same and he did.

Where do they come up with DTM's? Some seed sites raise all their own plants so for a given season they know roughly what the DTM is. But many companies don't raise their own plants, they can subcontract out or buy off the shelf.

So then where do they get those DTM's A good source is the SSE YEarbook but if you look at any ONE variety for the folks who list that variety there can be a HUGE difference in DTM's depending on where that lister grew it, which season as to weather, etc.

As for blurbs that describe tomato varieties, just read them at most places with a grain of salt but there are some seed sites where the exaggeration is kept to a mimimum, which is good.

No one can tell you what the fruits of a variety taste like, you can only know by growing the variety yourself, where you grow, what your soil is like, how you grow your tomatoes, what amendments you use and how much and so much more.

Since taste is personal and perceptual and actually has a human genetic compnent not everyone experiences the same taste for a given variety.

Elizabeth · September 28, 2011

LOL - 3' in a couple of months. I planted them under lights in mid August, potted up to 4" about Aug 25, then before I could get them all planted out to permanent pots scooted off to the Heirloom Exposition a couple of weeks ago. I swear they shot up a foot the week I was gone!

I know all about the "plan" thing. I'm kinda obsessive when it comes to that - I have spreadsheets galore. I have one that is an inventory of all my seed varieties that includes everything from botanical names (handy for rotation) to good/bad companions, and everything in between. I have a value I enter for each month 0.1=start inside, 1= good to plant, 2 = ok to plant, 3=don't plant so I can sort the spreadsheet to see what I could be planting each month. Right now I'm working on my garden rotation plan for the next 4 years. Colors for each family, # of beds for a given family based on what I want each year (80 beets, 32 kohlrabi, 15 tomato plants...), length of time in the ground, root depth, heavy/light feeder, susceptible to RKN, Resistant to RKN, yadda yadda... I have 15 beds that are 12 sq ft (weird dimensions I know) and a 8' x4' bed and I'm trying to fit as many veg as I can in there for year around growing, while on a long rotation schedule. I have groups of pots and sections of the landscape suitable for veg on there too. Color coding is my friend!

lakelady · September 28, 2011

Thanks everyone...I'm using the DTMs I do find on websites as a guestimate of which ones will likely fruit early, midseason and later. Then I find myself agonizing over those borderline ones ...."should it be an early, or do I think it will come in midseason"? lol...I guess nature is going to produce them when she's good and ready no matter what the DTMS are. It just sort of messes up my spreadsheet is all

. An awful lot goes into when something is going to produce as you said Carolyn, so even my seedlings could be so different than anyone elses. Maybe they should just stick to early, midseason, and late and be done with it

. So much variability. As I looked at one tomato I bought seeds for on Sandhill Preservation site which says early, then another site lists it as late, it really just makes my brain much too tired to figure it all out anymore.

So I'm going with early, mid, late (estimates of course), then my colors, shapes and that will have to be enough. Long as I get tomatoes, it really doesn't matter anyway!

lakelady · September 28, 2011

Okay Elizabeth, you win. You beat me out on spreadsheets. At least for now

. I don't have enough space to be too crazed, but probably short enough on sunny spots to become more obsessive eventually if I don't get what I want planted !

At present, I decided to enlarge the main garden area and go out another 6' for next year. Well, it goes into my hillside, and when turning it over, I found a small "boulder" (ha!) that I insist MUST GO. My sons and I couldn't get it out, so now I'm asking my neighbors what methods I can use to move it. Of course, they think I'm nuts and can't understand why it has to move since it is covered by soil, but it is only 6" down and I need that space! I did consider blasting it, but of course, cannot do that and would probably take out half the neighborhood if I tried. oh well. gonna have to dig a channel and roll the darn thing out until I hit the big boulders. My kids are definately not going to like this project !

dice · October 1, 2011

A suggested dtm guide for NJ:

Way earlier than Rutgers
Earlier than Rutgers
About the same as Rutgers
Later than Rutgers
Much later than Rutgers

**carolyn137** · October 1, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by dice

A suggested dtm guide for NJ:

Way earlier than Rutgers
Earlier than Rutgers
About the same as Rutgers
Later than Rutgers
Much later than Rutgers

Gotta love it b'c in the SSE YEarbook each year there are probably 6-8 different versions of Rutgers, as in improved, well, I'll just list those in the 2011 YEarbook:

Rutgers, with DTM's of 75-80 days listed
Rutgers 39 VF, no DTM listed
Rutgers California Supreme, no DTM listed
Rutgerts F, one lister, 75 days
Rutgers Improved, 75 to 87 days listed
Rutgers PS-2, no DTM listed
Rutgers VF, 75 to 80 days listed

O would it depend on which Rutgers had been planted and where, in a geographoc sense?

Of course NJ being the Garden State, which it was until about 1940, everything should grow perfectly in NJ as well as on time with regard to DTM's.

lakelady · October 1, 2011

ah, I finally finished my spreadsheet and in COLOR lol. Pink blocked varieties are early, green are mid season, and orange are late. I figured the key would read (if I made one)...pink: can be early or can be midseason, green; can be early, mid or late, and orange, can be midseason or late . I don't know why I even bothered LOL.

Yeah, a lot of folks love Rutgers tomatoes and that's all they plant, or their grandfather's no-name tomatoes from Italy. Too bad I didn't save any of those seeds, ugh!

ContainerTed · October 2, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by dice

A suggested dtm guide for NJ:

Way earlier than Rutgers
Earlier than Rutgers
About the same as Rutgers
Later than Rutgers
Much later than Rutgers

Dice and Carolyn make very good points. DTM's should only be considered someone's "very" rough guess that particular year and only for "THEIR" garden. DTM's only give the general "tendency" of the variety. Your conditions and total growing environment are so different that their data cannot be applied to your garden with any reliability. Remember the old catch, "Your mileage may vary".

I've had plants from the same seed packet and the same sowing and planting dates grow and produce at different rates even when planted side by side. I've had so-called "early" varieties be not so early and "mid season" varieties produce first. So, DTM's are only a rough guess and can only be used to loosely group the different varieties.

I use this:

First - Still depends on when planted and 10,000 other variants.
Main crop - Later than first (most of the time).
Late - Includes the second round for first two groups.
Last - What you harvest when you shut the garden down for the year. Includes slightly blushed or green fruit picked at frost time.

This keeps the anxiety out of my DTM expectation factor.

lakelady · October 2, 2011

Thanks that is really helpful .... I sort of have a list based on what it "seems" the DTMS are. I figure the earlies could mature mid season, and the mid seasons could go either way, and then lates could mature earlier or later. LOL...that's real specific, isn't it?

So I do have a very rough list so far of some of what I think I'll plant. In the past most of my plants matured late, so I want some earlier varieties in there too next year.

This is the first draft of what I think i'd like for next year, of course leaving lots of room for changes...I have a big sunny spot that I never plant anything in because it's mostly concrete with a tiny strip of soil next to it (it's an old shuffleboard court). I use it as a walkway to get around the house, so next year I'm putting containers up there!
Anna Russian
Bloody Butcher
Stupice
Jeunne Flammes
Black Cherry
Berkeley Tie Dye Pink
Black Krim
JD Special Ctex
Brandywine Croatia
Cherokee Chocolate (might only have 1 Cherokee)
Cherokee Purple
Earls Faux
Mariannas Peace
Paul Robeson
Rinaldo
San Marzano
Ukranian Heart
Green Zebra Stripes
Black Sea Man
Gildo Pietroboni
Hanky Red
Japanese Black Trifele
Red Ponderosa
Berkeley Tie Die Heart
Chocolate Stripe
Raspberry Large Red

TeamTeke · October 12, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakelady

I found a small "boulder" (ha!) that I insist MUST GO. My sons and I couldn't get it out, so now I'm asking my neighbors what methods I can use to move it.

Here is another idea. You can buy a product that you mix and pour into a hole you drill into the rock with a hammer drill. As a building contractor I have found it at large tool rental shops. Here is an internet link:
http://answers.google.com/answers/th...id/354284.html

As another idea perhaps a local is available with a mini-excavator or backhoe in your neighborhood.

lakelady · October 12, 2011

Wow, now that sounds like an option since I really don't want the rock to roll where it will have to roll if we go that way.

Can't really get a backhoe or anything into this area because it is a multi-level property. Just wondering...would any particles fly? My bedroom window is 15' away from this stone, lol....from the link it seems like it just creates a crack which you can then wedge open with a pick axe or something.

September 28, 2011	#1
lakelady Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: northern NJ zone 6b Posts: 1,862	So I'm planning 2012, and one thing is driving me nuts... WHY oh WHY .... do they state "days" as a point of reference from planting out date? Why not go from date of seeding? What if I keep my seedlings indoors for 8 weeks, and john keeps his indoors for 4? Should we expect the same DTM then? Who thought of this? Was there a reason ? To me, and I know I'm just one lonesome person here, it would make more sense to state days to maturity (or fruit) as days from seeding. I'm having difficulty keeping track of all these things ! Oh, and since I mentioned it, are the "days" supposed to be days to flowering, days to fruit set, days to mature fruits? I never thought about it before really. Never mind the fact that websites can differ tremendously in DTM (if that is what it is called in tomato talk)...the same variety is stated 70 days on one website and another is 85-90. wonder why I'm confused? lol Yes, there was one more thing since I'm on a roll ..... why on earth would someone name a tomato Earlibell if it takes 86 days from planting out? To me that says late season, yet it's supposed to be early. Sounds misleading to me, or is 86 days early to someone? sheesh.... I don't know that I'll ever be able to get my "plan" for 2012 finished based on the dates and trying to figure out when I'll start what.

September 28, 2011	#2
Elizabeth Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: San Diego Coastal - Zone 10b Posts: 204	LOL. You sound a bit....frustrated. Funny thing is, just in the last hour I was wondering the same thing about transplant sizes impacting maturity date. I planted some seedlings under lights in August that were potted up to 4" pots, but I had to go out of town for a week before I could get them in the garden. I put them in 2 gallon pots outside until I could get to them - the darn things are huge now - I'm talking 3' high tomato plants I'm trying to get transplanted here. They are a bit unwieldy and it's taking forever! I sure hope the date to maturity is 4-6 weeks after seeding like a transplant is supposed to be, and not the date they finally get in their final home 86 days is not early - maybe they named it after their wife, or cow, that sure sounds like a cow's name. The days to maturity differing - I always figure that depends on where they are growing it so I look at the location of the seed company - of course if they are the kind that gets theirs from a broker, who knows. You might try Tatiana's Tomato database - you get a mix of people posting there so you may be able to get a better idea for the real DTM. Dave's Garden is another resource for tracking down details on a plant. __________________ Elizabeth If I'm going to water and care for a plant it had better give me food, flowers or shade.

September 28, 2011	#5
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	DTM's are sheer guesstimates and are supposed to indicate the time from setting out plants to first ripe fruits. In Europe they do indicate the days from starting seed to first ripe fruit but I think it makes more sense to go from setting outside since there are far more variables that can impact growth and fruit maturation than there are variables associated with raising seedlings. I laugh when I see a DTM of say, 72 days. What I use is a range of days when indicating what I mean by early, midseason and late. And I indicated them in my book and also suggested to Glenn Drowns at Sandhill to do the same and he did. Where do they come up with DTM's? Some seed sites raise all their own plants so for a given season they know roughly what the DTM is. But many companies don't raise their own plants, they can subcontract out or buy off the shelf. So then where do they get those DTM's A good source is the SSE YEarbook but if you look at any ONE variety for the folks who list that variety there can be a HUGE difference in DTM's depending on where that lister grew it, which season as to weather, etc. As for blurbs that describe tomato varieties, just read them at most places with a grain of salt but there are some seed sites where the exaggeration is kept to a mimimum, which is good. No one can tell you what the fruits of a variety taste like, you can only know by growing the variety yourself, where you grow, what your soil is like, how you grow your tomatoes, what amendments you use and how much and so much more. Since taste is personal and perceptual and actually has a human genetic compnent not everyone experiences the same taste for a given variety. __________________ Carolyn

September 28, 2011	#6
Elizabeth Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: San Diego Coastal - Zone 10b Posts: 204	LOL - 3' in a couple of months. I planted them under lights in mid August, potted up to 4" about Aug 25, then before I could get them all planted out to permanent pots scooted off to the Heirloom Exposition a couple of weeks ago. I swear they shot up a foot the week I was gone! I know all about the "plan" thing. I'm kinda obsessive when it comes to that - I have spreadsheets galore. I have one that is an inventory of all my seed varieties that includes everything from botanical names (handy for rotation) to good/bad companions, and everything in between. I have a value I enter for each month 0.1=start inside, 1= good to plant, 2 = ok to plant, 3=don't plant so I can sort the spreadsheet to see what I could be planting each month. Right now I'm working on my garden rotation plan for the next 4 years. Colors for each family, # of beds for a given family based on what I want each year (80 beets, 32 kohlrabi, 15 tomato plants...), length of time in the ground, root depth, heavy/light feeder, susceptible to RKN, Resistant to RKN, yadda yadda... I have 15 beds that are 12 sq ft (weird dimensions I know) and a 8' x4' bed and I'm trying to fit as many veg as I can in there for year around growing, while on a long rotation schedule. I have groups of pots and sections of the landscape suitable for veg on there too. Color coding is my friend! __________________ Elizabeth If I'm going to water and care for a plant it had better give me food, flowers or shade.

September 28, 2011	#7
lakelady Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: northern NJ zone 6b Posts: 1,862	Thanks everyone...I'm using the DTMs I do find on websites as a guestimate of which ones will likely fruit early, midseason and later. Then I find myself agonizing over those borderline ones ...."should it be an early, or do I think it will come in midseason"? lol...I guess nature is going to produce them when she's good and ready no matter what the DTMS are. It just sort of messes up my spreadsheet is all. An awful lot goes into when something is going to produce as you said Carolyn, so even my seedlings could be so different than anyone elses. Maybe they should just stick to early, midseason, and late and be done with it . So much variability. As I looked at one tomato I bought seeds for on Sandhill Preservation site which says early, then another site lists it as late, it really just makes my brain much too tired to figure it all out anymore. So I'm going with early, mid, late (estimates of course), then my colors, shapes and that will have to be enough. Long as I get tomatoes, it really doesn't matter anyway!

September 28, 2011	#4
Raffles Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Northern Vermont Posts: 700	The "DTM" count means good growing days. We don't get many of those in a row up here as a rule. As for Earlibell, think of Greenland. It's all about marketing.

October 1, 2011	#9
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	A suggested dtm guide for NJ: Way earlier than Rutgers Earlier than Rutgers About the same as Rutgers Later than Rutgers Much later than Rutgers __________________ -- alias

October 2, 2011	#13
lakelady Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: northern NJ zone 6b Posts: 1,862	Thanks that is really helpful .... I sort of have a list based on what it "seems" the DTMS are. I figure the earlies could mature mid season, and the mid seasons could go either way, and then lates could mature earlier or later. LOL...that's real specific, isn't it? So I do have a very rough list so far of some of what I think I'll plant. In the past most of my plants matured late, so I want some earlier varieties in there too next year. This is the first draft of what I think i'd like for next year, of course leaving lots of room for changes...I have a big sunny spot that I never plant anything in because it's mostly concrete with a tiny strip of soil next to it (it's an old shuffleboard court). I use it as a walkway to get around the house, so next year I'm putting containers up there! Anna Russian Bloody Butcher Stupice Jeunne Flammes Black Cherry Berkeley Tie Dye Pink Black Krim JD Special Ctex Brandywine Croatia Cherokee Chocolate (might only have 1 Cherokee) Cherokee Purple Earls Faux Mariannas Peace Paul Robeson Rinaldo San Marzano Ukranian Heart Green Zebra Stripes Black Sea Man Gildo Pietroboni Hanky Red Japanese Black Trifele Red Ponderosa Berkeley Tie Die Heart Chocolate Stripe Raspberry Large Red

October 12, 2011	#15
lakelady Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: northern NJ zone 6b Posts: 1,862	Wow, now that sounds like an option since I really don't want the rock to roll where it will have to roll if we go that way. Can't really get a backhoe or anything into this area because it is a multi-level property. Just wondering...would any particles fly? My bedroom window is 15' away from this stone, lol....from the link it seems like it just creates a crack which you can then wedge open with a pick axe or something.