So I'm thinking of digging up some lawn...

[lakelady]

well, I have to find more sunny spots and unfortunately, the lawn happens to be in the way . My 12 year old exclaimed "but mom, that's the best lawn in the whole yard!". My response was "yeah, and what do you use it for?" lol... I tried to be encouraging by telling him it was LESS lawn to cut with the mower.

I'll start small. I have no idea how to do this and since there my property is many multi-levels of stone walls (settled by the Dutch many years ago, master wall builders!), I suspect I have some big boulders under ground. Put it this way, very nearby I have some massive boulders and one little dead spot in that lawn that is the surface only of what is probably a huge rock. It's always been just grass so I've never dug it up.

I was thinking of possibly laying out a small bed, and just covering it with black plastic to kill the grass instead of me breaking my back to turn it over with a shovel. A raised bed ? Suggestions? How deep does it need to be?

[TomatoDon]

LakeLady there is a good raised bed thread going on now that has a lot of good information. Read that as a starting point. It's hard to do any better than a good raised bed.

[lakelady]

Yes, I've been reading that thread, I guess my question should have been, is 12" really enough to build over grass that is hard and compacted and never been dug up before? If I do this, I really want to make it easier on my back

[ddsack]

I added two 4' x 12' raised beds at the end of my existing beds this fall. I know the soil there is hard clay under the grass, because when I first tilled near that area years ago, I was tempted to try to make pottery out of the soil! I wish I still had my Mantis tiller, but since I don't, and digging is too horrendous a task, I decided to just do the lasagna method of layering cardboard over the grass, and then layers of old manure, compost and shredded leaves. Since the plan is to grow shallow rooted plants like peas, onions and leaks there for now, the top 12" should be fine. In future years, I may try to dig down deeper so eventually I can rotate other things in there.

If you are on a hillside, you might have to terrace one side of the bed up more so the soil is level, so you would gain a little depth that way.

[amideutch]

Antoniette, yes 12" is deep enough. My surrogate raised bed at work is sitting on sandstone as is the whole site. Ami

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=8941

[raindrops27]

Hi Lakelady!

I cannot imagine the work it would entail if I had to break up a piece of lawn with a shovel. When I first took up the lawn with a tiller for the garden. Under the dense grass, about 1 foot deep. I found a small existing patio and right next to the patio, was a pool liner, with millions of pool rocks around, over, and under it. Not to mention all types of broken concrete, pottery, boulders, bricks, humungous rocks, talk about work. Than, as my love of tomatoes grew. Somehow, I forgot all that backbreaking tilling work, and I got the bright idea to do an expansionBecause, of course. I just had to make more room, for more tomato plants. lol. I truly almost nearly gave up. I am sitting here now with bags full of chopped leaves that I am making every excuse not to just get out there, to till into the garden beds.

What types of crops are you planting? I guess, if it is small root crops a raised bed would be perfect. If not, at least borrow, or rent a tiller. Either way, I hope things work out for you.

Melissa

[Worth1]

One thing I would suggest is something I almost never see with a raised bed.
On the corners and center if you are going to put in a long one.

4X4's that are around 4 feet long in this way not only is the corners supported better but you have a start of a frame for wrapping clear plastic for frost and freeze protection.

Worth

[FILMNET]

Guess I was lucky, 2 years ago i took the grass of my lawn, came up easy, 10ft by 20ft, i put the grass around the yard in holes and other places . So no waste, i was to dig the dirt and spread compost before the winter. But there was so many worms and the beautiful dirt just so soft no rocks either. Great tomatoes plants 2 years ago, last year another 10 by20.I did not dig in the dirt again. Because our home was built 1809, and the garden was the bottom of a barn for 100 years 1845-1973 . Horses only in the barn.

[Mudman]

Originally Posted by raindrops27

Hi Lakelady!

I cannot imagine the work it would entail if I had to break up a piece of lawn with a shovel.

Melissa

Oh, I know! I do it every year when I run out of space for more varieties to grow! I once tilled it and the grass all seemed to find a way back to the surface and was a real pain to weed, so now I remove all the sod and make a sod pile to be used later.

[OtterJon]

Who needs grass when you have tomatoes? Srsly.. and I think Worth's suggestion of the 4x4's if you do a raised bed is a great one. Would be so much easier to protect like that.. Give your son a hornworm and send him on his way to play in other parts of the yard..You have sod to cover!

Jon

[lakelady]

thanks guys, my back has been bothering me lately for other stupid things I've done and the thought of digging makes me shudder. I don't own a rototiller, though I could probably rent one. If I were a fairy godmother, I could wave my wand and "whoosh" turn the kitten, the cat, and the dog into strong working men, lol...to build things for me! But alas, the reality is, it's mostly me and once in a while, my sons who know even less about these things than I do. My 12 year old somehow always seems to find a stick that becomes a sword and disappears fighting some imaginary knight or something and my 18 year old just thinks I'm plain crazy. (you want to do what? Why do you want to do that?).
My new answer is because I am the boss, and because I can. hmph!

I need room for more tomato varieties Melissa, and my property is not flat, nor level. Its mostly trees, but I have small sunny spots here and there, so I have little gardens all around the house. Lots and lots of stone walls and stairs. Not exactly farmland, but it will have to do. Okay, so raised beds with 2x12's . I think next weekend I'll go get some lumber and see what we come up with. Getting any dirt into the yard is going to be difficult though it will all have to be carried in by hand/bucket, to a wheelbarrow to the garden. I still need to get ready for the holidays. Yikes. Not enough time. Yep, I wish I was a fairy godmother. Worth, the idea of 4x4's is great, but can they be smaller, like 2x2? And, do we just fasten them to the inside, or the outside? Guess it would also be a good idea to serve as something to fasten fencing to in order to keep out critters (hopefully, but the kitten seems to have great hunting instincts, so I hope she helps control them).

[dice]

I would put down several layers of newspaper all over it and just
pile up 2' of organic matter on top. If you want to put sides on it,
fine. (You have lots of rock around; maybe use that for sides.)

By spring it will only be a foot deep or so (if a lot of the organic matter
was leaves, manure, etc; things like that lose some air space as they
decay), but what soil is under it will have gained a lot of structure from
the thick mulch on top, which aids soil aggregation. Rocks under the old
turf will be too far down to be any kind of problem.

[Worth1]

Antoniette

2x2's would work but they would have to be braced with more 2x2's at a 45 degree angle on but sides.
To complicate things the screws or nails you would use would split the smaller wood unless you drill lead holes which I would anyway.
An option would be to get angle braces and put the 2X 12's together and then just use 2X2's for support for the freeze protection.

The reason for the 4x4's was to serve two things, one to have plenty of surface area to screw the wood together and the other would be the support.

IF you are worried about cutting them you can get the store to cut them for you.

Yet another idea would be to put the lumber together and see how wide the total would be.
Then have the 4X4's cut this length.
When you put the 2x12's on the 4x4's dont overlap the end of the other one as many people would do.
Instead run each end just up to the outer corner so there would be another smaller square notch.
In this notch you can then put the 2x2.
It would look neat and be strong.

Just remember drill lead/pilot holes and all of your work will be better and easier.

I have one thing to say about construction, dont cheap out on design and materials.
Many times just a few dollars more, careful attention to detail and taking your time will make all the difference in a well made, long lasting, professional looking product.

I have a 30 year old book case made from oak I built for my wife as a birthday present to prove it.


Worth