Requesting recommendations for reds that knock your socks off!

[Hastings]

I'm short on my seed list for good/great slicing and beefsteak red tomatoes. I would love to hear what you are saving a special place for in your garden this year. I'm looking for everything from that assertive, bold tomato taste to the sweet tomato.

[Fusion_power]

Back at the trough again I see.

1884
Akers West Virginia
Box Car Willie
Brandywine Red Potato leaf varant (not really Brandywine, but a very good tomato anyway)
Chapman
Crnkovic Yugoslavian
Cuostralee
Druzba
Mule Team
Nepal (this one is variable in production, climate dependent)
Neves Azorean Red (aka Perry's teasum)
Old Brooks
Omar's Lebanese
Red Brandywine
Rutgers
Wisconsin 55 (for northern climate folks)


Hybrids that I've enjoyed
Momotaro
Big Beef

DarJones

[Hastings]

I have just absolutely poured through the catalogs and scoured the internet and there are just so many choices! I didn't really know what I was growing until after I planted it last year, so I really want this year to be phenomental. I feel that this can only be accomplished through knowledge: from the advice of those far more knowledgable than me and learning anything else I can on my own. Thank you, DarJones, for helping me out. I check TVille almost every day and I'm always checking the various threads to see what everyone has to say about anything!
Shannon

[Worth1]

Here is what you do.

Hang the tomato names on the wall and throw a dart at them.

The ones the dart comes closest to grow them.

Easy

Worth

[Hermitian]

Just to be picky: everyone of the tomatoes on your list is a hybrid -- in fact all cultivated tomatoes are hybrids. Whether they are F1, F7, or stable is another question.

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

Back at the trough again I see.

1884
Akers West Virginia
Box Car Willie
Brandywine Red Potato leaf varant (not really Brandywine, but a very good tomato anyway)
Chapman
Crnkovic Yugoslavian
Cuostralee
Druzba
Mule Team
Nepal (this one is variable in production, climate dependent)
Neves Azorean Red (aka Perry's teasum)
Old Brooks
Omar's Lebanese
Red Brandywine
Rutgers
Wisconsin 55 (for northern climate folks)


Hybrids that I've enjoyed
Momotaro
Big Beef

DarJones

[carolyn137]

Darrel, you've got some pinks in there as well. (smile)

Hastings, you asked for red varieties, big ones with great flavor that folks were going to plant out this year.

OK, 10 folks answer and per usual, no real consensus. It makes a big difference if someone has grown out less than maybe 50 varieties as opposed to those who have grown out hundreds, yea thousands, b'c the more varieties you grow it seems that often new and better ones pop up. And that's b/c the more varieties you grow you have an easier job of comparing them with ones you've grown in the past.

As for me, right now I have no idea whatsoever which, if any, large great red ones I might be growing this summer although I've grown plenty in the past several decades.

I like Worth's idea of playing darts, actually.

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

... I like Worth's idea of playing darts, actually.

I agree! Also, it often comes down to personal tastes in sugar/acid balance and how well a specific cultivar grows in your regional environment.

[Worth1]

Is there not one tomato out there that is a result of natural mutant variation or selective breeding.

Worth

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

Just to be picky: everyone of the tomatoes on your list is a hybrid -- in fact all cultivated tomatoes are hybrids. Whether they are F1, F7, or stable is another question.

Ahem. I don't agree with your comment that every one of the varieties on Darrel's list is a hybrid nor that all cultivated tomatoes are hybrids.

What is your definition of a hybrid variety?

Saved seeds from a known hybrid or suspected one is a different issue.

I just went through this with someone at another message site and I don't think I'm up for any long discussion, but the definition of an F1 hybrid is known. I'm just asking what you consider an F1 hybrid to be as opposed to a known stable OP varoety.

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Is there not one tomato out there that is a result of natural mutant variation or selective breeding.

Worth

A species is defined in modern biology by genotype within a certain genus and tribe.
A hybrid is a natural or human-induced cross between two genotypes.
A cultivar is a genotype with a specific phenotype -- for example, a selection from a breeding program.
A mutation is a natural or human-induced change in either genotype or phenotype.

Tomatoes have been hybridizing and mutating in nature for Eons. They were then cultivated and hybridized by natives in the Americas for millennia. The "original" tomato species was either a hybrid or mutation from historic species of the Solaneae tribe. And likewise, so it is with all the species we know on earth today.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

A species is defined in modern biology by genotype within a certain genus and tribe.
A hybrid is a natural or human-induced cross between two genotypes.
A cultivar is a genotype with a specific phenotype -- for example, a selection from a breeding program.
A mutation is a natural or human-induced change in either genotype or phenotype.

Tomatoes have been hybridizing and mutating in nature for Eons. They were then cultivated and hybridized by natives in the Americas for millennia. The "original" tomato species was either a hybrid or mutation from historic species of the Solaneae tribe. And likewise, so it is with all the species we know on earth today.

I may have read more on the origins of domesticated plants and animals than anyone I personally know. (Not here on Tomatoville)
It is quite an amazing story how some civilizations had it almost handed to them while others had to struggle to this day.

Worth

[habitat_gardener]

If you're talking with other biologists, fine.

If you're talking with tomato growers, well then no, hybrids are varieties that don't breed true from collected seed.

It's like saying, no, your chocolate bar isn't 100 calories as it says on the label, those are kilocalories, so it's really 100,000 calories.

Context is everything.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

A species is defined in modern biology by genotype within a certain genus and tribe.
A hybrid is a natural or human-induced cross between two genotypes.
A cultivar is a genotype with a specific phenotype -- for example, a selection from a breeding program.
A mutation is a natural or human-induced change in either genotype or phenotype.

Tomatoes have been hybridizing and mutating in nature for Eons. They were then cultivated and hybridized by natives in the Americas for millennia. The "original" tomato species was either a hybrid or mutation from historic species of the Solaneae tribe. And likewise, so it is with all the species we know on earth today.

OK, I know that, remember I'm OLD, but that doesn't explain why you think all the tomatoes on Darrels list are F1 hybrids.

And with tomatoes, selections form growouts of hybrids are called selections, not cultivars.

And you didn't mention genus.

And no, not all the original species in S America from the highlands of chile and peru are known to be hybrids. S. chessmanii, is one example.

Are you familr with the TGRC, also called the Rick Center at US Davis? That's the headquarters for all information about the species known today which is up now to about 16 different species. And most of the species are self infertile and have propagated themselves far away from each other so that little to no X pollination could have occured.

one has to go back to what first appeared in Mexico in the 1500's and how tomatoes got to Mexico from Chile and Peru no one knows for sure, but they also went to the Galapagos islands which has been a rich source of species for the Rick Center in addition to the first species brought back from S America by Dr. Rick.

DNA Analyses have been done on many so that helps a lot.

And now back to trying to set up my seed offer b'c the day is growing late.

lastly, it's been estimated that of the OP varieties known to date, which is probably around 15,000 plus or minus, it's been estimated that probably only 5% arose by mutation from a pre existing variety. Interesting. Of course many mutations were needed as tomatoes evolved to what we know today, such as increase is size, locule numbers, retraction of the stigma, etc.

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by habitat_gardener

If you're talking with other biologists, fine.
If you're talking with tomato growers, well then no, hybrids are varieties that don't breed true from collected seed.

It's a myth spread by sellers. It's about time to hold their feet to the fire.

Originally Posted by carolyn137

OK, I know that, remember I'm OLD, but that doesn't explain why you think all the tomatoes on Darrels list are F1 hybrids.

I didn't.

Originally Posted by carolyn137

And with tomatoes, selections form growouts of hybrids are called selections, not cultivars.

Horticulturists will differ with you.

Originally Posted by carolyn137

And you didn't mention genus.

Actually I did.

Originally Posted by carolyn137

And no, not all the original species in S America from the highlands of chile and peru are known to be hybrids. S. chessmanii, is one example.

S. chessmanii is a locally stable hybrid or mutation of some ancestrial species from the Solaneae tribe.

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Are you familr with the TGRC, also called the Rick Center at US Davis? That's the headquarters for all information about the species known today which is up now to about 16 different species. And most of the species are self infertile and have propagated themselves far away from each other so that little to no X pollination could have occured.

A geneticist will tell you that they are all hybrids or mutation of some ancestrial species from the Solaneae tribe.

[BigBrownDogHouse]

I'm just sitting back really enjoying this thread!

<feet up...big bowl of popcorn>