Black Sea Man or Chernomor?

bower · February 21, 2012

The plants I grew as "Black Sea Man" last year don't match the description, of a small determinate plant with "brownish" (red+green='black') fruit. I've been advised that there may be "Chernomor" being sold as "Black Sea Man", since this translates the same from the Russian, but is an indeterminate plant with purplish fruit (pink+green = 'black').

I'm hoping that others who have grown Black Sea Man and/or Chernomor can help me to figure it out. So I went through my photos, and will try to attach them.

My "Black Sea Man" were huge potato leaf plants. They overtopped the five foot cage and were woven down into a bower with my other tomatoes, in the end reaching 8 or 9 feet in length and never forming a "terminal bud". I thought this was enough to consider it indeterminate, but I read on another thread here that determinate plants are distinguished by having only one or two internodes between flower clusters. As it turns out, my pictures of their growing tips show only two internodes between flowers, which suggests it is 'determinate' after all??.

The fruits were borne in clusters of up to 13 fruit, ripening sequentially. When ripe fruit were removed, the smaller ones filled out before ripening. Fruit were mostly 4-6 oz. The ripe fruit were very pink on the bottom, and 'purplish' on top due to the green shoulder. The colour looks more like Chernomor, afaik from internet searches.

Is this "Black Sea Man", or "Chernomor", or neither??

(If the pictures don't load, they're in an album here.)

afrance30 · February 21, 2012

My BSM tomatoes are always quite a bit darker than that, so perhaps it's Chernomor, I don't know :shrug: Those resemble my Cherokee Purple tomatoes more than my BSM.

Tania · February 21, 2012

Chernomor and Black Sea Man should be the same tomato. Black Sea Man is just a translated name of Chernomor. However, some folks who grew Chernomor (PL) did describe them as indet. plants. So somewhere something went wrong with seed... unfortunately it happens.

Bower, your description does match the description of Chernomor given by Neil Lockhart in the SSE Yearbook. Where did you get the seeds?

There is also a regular leafed Chernomor, which is different (RL and indet.), commercially available in Russia/Belarus.

Confusing, isn't it?

afrance30 · February 21, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tania

Chernomor and Black Sea Man should be the same tomato. Black Sea Man is just a translated name of Chernomor. However, some folks who grew Chernomor (PL) did describe them as indet. plants. So somewhere something went wrong with seed... unfortunately it happens.

Bower, your description does match the description of Chernomor given by Neil Lockhart in the SSE Yearbook. Where did you get the seeds?

There is also a regular leafed Chernomor, which is different (RL and indet.), commercially available in Russia/Belarus.

Confusing, isn't it?

Tania, interesting to know Chernomor and Black Sea Man are the same, but I'm curious about the color. Would color vary a lot due to environmental conditions? (different temps, soil and so on)

My Black Sea Man are darker like the one pictured in this blog post I found http://livinglightinternational.word...ce-by-kristin/

I got mine from SSE.

Moshou · February 21, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tania

Black Sea Man is just a translated name of Chernomor.

I am not sure of that. I am not a Russian speaker, but, if I remember well from primary school, Chernomorets could be a better translation

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tania

So somewhere something went wrong with seed... unfortunately it happens.

1. A trusty translation is needed, otherwise confusions are very possible

2. I might be wrong, but a strange situation happens in my garden for two times. I received seeds for same variety from two different sources: Russia and Ukraine. Tomato fruits resulted were different, but every time those originated from Russia were closest by standard description. I can see that Ukrainian seed stores have an incredible large offer, larger that Russian stores. It could be a strange situation that rises strange questions.

maf · February 21, 2012

The pictures in the album looked indeterminate to me. I counted 3 leaves between flower clusters on one tip pic, and the other seemed like it could be either 2 or 3 but I am fairly sure it was actually 3.

bower · February 21, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tania

Chernomor and Black Sea Man should be the same tomato. Black Sea Man is just a translated name of Chernomor. However, some folks who grew Chernomor (PL) did describe them as indet. plants. So somewhere something went wrong with seed... unfortunately it happens.

Bower, your description does match the description of Chernomor given by Neil Lockhart in the SSE Yearbook. Where did you get the seeds?

There is also a regular leafed Chernomor, which is different (RL and indet.), commercially available in Russia/Belarus.

Confusing, isn't it?

Indeed it is confusing!
The seeds came from www.terraedibles.ca , in Ontario. The description, though, was the same given elsewhere for Black Sea Man: a small plant with brownish fruit, which isn't what grew! (very nice tomato all the same).

I did find a picture of Chernomor online that looks like them: it's the one on the right side here, although they can be darker when fully ripe, but they are certainly pink/purple and not red/brown.

bower · February 21, 2012

Thanks, maf - you could be right, it's hard to tell from a photo. I guess I'll find out for sure when they grow again.

bower · February 21, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by afrance30

My BSM tomatoes are always quite a bit darker than that, so perhaps it's Chernomor, I don't know :shrug: Those resemble my Cherokee Purple tomatoes more than my BSM.

hmmm... I was just googling and found another picture - posted here by feldon30 in post #276 of this thread, which shows Black Sea Man in a group of "Pink Purples".

Maybe there are two different fruits called Black Sea Man?

**carolyn137** · February 21, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by bower

hmmm... I was just googling and found another picture - posted here by feldon30 in post #276 of this thread, which shows Black Sea Man in a group of "Pink Purples".

Maybe there are two different fruits called Black Sea Man?

I would hope there aren't two Black Sea Mans.

Black Sea Man and Southern Nights were two det PL varieties that Marie Danilenko in Moscow had sent to SSE, she was their contact back then, and I grew Black Sea Man and Southern Nights at that time for SSE for trial and it was SSE listed by quite a few folks and when they started the website and Catalog Black Sea Man was also listed there as well, just one standard Black Sea Man.

bower · February 21, 2012

Carolyn, is my plant just an indeterminate version of the Black Sea Man? Or do I have something else. I'm very confused!

bower · February 21, 2012

I'm going to take another shot at posting a photo - which is in any case uploaded to the album here.

The fruit on the far left is from Black Giant. It didn't bear many fruit for me, but I noticed the colour difference right away. It is distinctly "brownish", compared with the Black Sea Man which is shown in the middle. The tone of the Black Sea Man is the same as Black Cherry shown among the others although not as dark - definitely pink/purple and not brownish or orange-red like a typical tomato.

From what I have been reading, there are different genes involved in producing a 'brownish' black tomato and a 'purplish' one. Pink is a product of clear skin and red flesh; red is a product of yellow skin and red flesh; the combination with green gives brown for a red, and purple for a pink. So colour differences are genetic differences - they can't be the same variety.

But perhaps all Black Sea Man are purplish? and not brownish?

akgardengirl · February 21, 2012

There is a lengthy thread called "Suggestions for an early green". If you search "Chernomor" you will find that title. It's a confusing tomato especially when the "Black Sea Man" is thrown into the mix! Sorry, I don't know how to link the thread.
Sue B.

Iva · February 22, 2012

My Black Sea Man got to 4 feet or so and had purplish fruit with predominant green shoulders. Huge potato leaves...

afrance30 · February 22, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by akgardengirl

There is a lengthy thread called "Suggestions for an early green". If you search "Chernomor" you will find that title. It's a confusing tomato especially when the "Black Sea Man" is thrown into the mix! Sorry, I don't know how to link the thread.
Sue B.

found it! http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...ight=Chernomor

Interesting!

February 21, 2012	#1
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,794	Black Sea Man or Chernomor? The plants I grew as "Black Sea Man" last year don't match the description, of a small determinate plant with "brownish" (red+green='black') fruit. I've been advised that there may be "Chernomor" being sold as "Black Sea Man", since this translates the same from the Russian, but is an indeterminate plant with purplish fruit (pink+green = 'black'). I'm hoping that others who have grown Black Sea Man and/or Chernomor can help me to figure it out. So I went through my photos, and will try to attach them. My "Black Sea Man" were huge potato leaf plants. They overtopped the five foot cage and were woven down into a bower with my other tomatoes, in the end reaching 8 or 9 feet in length and never forming a "terminal bud". I thought this was enough to consider it indeterminate, but I read on another thread here that determinate plants are distinguished by having only one or two internodes between flower clusters. As it turns out, my pictures of their growing tips show only two internodes between flowers, which suggests it is 'determinate' after all??. The fruits were borne in clusters of up to 13 fruit, ripening sequentially. When ripe fruit were removed, the smaller ones filled out before ripening. Fruit were mostly 4-6 oz. The ripe fruit were very pink on the bottom, and 'purplish' on top due to the green shoulder. The colour looks more like Chernomor, afaik from internet searches. Is this "Black Sea Man", or "Chernomor", or neither?? (If the pictures don't load, they're in an album here.)

February 21, 2012	#3
Tania Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Anmore, BC, Canada Posts: 3,970	Chernomor and Black Sea Man should be the same tomato. Black Sea Man is just a translated name of Chernomor. However, some folks who grew Chernomor (PL) did describe them as indet. plants. So somewhere something went wrong with seed... unfortunately it happens. Bower, your description does match the description of Chernomor given by Neil Lockhart in the SSE Yearbook. Where did you get the seeds? There is also a regular leafed Chernomor, which is different (RL and indet.), commercially available in Russia/Belarus. Confusing, isn't it? __________________ Tatiana's TOMATObase

February 21, 2012	#2
afrance30 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2010 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 212	My BSM tomatoes are always quite a bit darker than that, so perhaps it's Chernomor, I don't know :shrug: Those resemble my Cherokee Purple tomatoes more than my BSM.

February 21, 2012	#6
maf Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: England Posts: 512	The pictures in the album looked indeterminate to me. I counted 3 leaves between flower clusters on one tip pic, and the other seemed like it could be either 2 or 3 but I am fairly sure it was actually 3.

February 21, 2012	#13
akgardengirl Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Anchorage, AK zone 3/4 Posts: 1,410	There is a lengthy thread called "Suggestions for an early green". If you search "Chernomor" you will find that title. It's a confusing tomato especially when the "Black Sea Man" is thrown into the mix! Sorry, I don't know how to link the thread. Sue B.

February 22, 2012	#14
Iva Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Slovenia, EU Posts: 249	My Black Sea Man got to 4 feet or so and had purplish fruit with predominant green shoulders. Huge potato leaves...