Potato leaf vs regular leaf

nancyruhl · May 1, 2012

I have a lot of confusion about this and I know that you knowledgable folks can help. A couple of years ago, I purchased seed for Lindas Faux, a potato leaf version of Akers West Virginia that was introduced a couple of years ago. Then there is KBX, potato leaf version of Kelloggs Breakfast, that is touted to have better growth and production. A few years ago, I found a couple of potato leaf seedling amoung my Granny Cantrells German Red. Needing all the help with leaf diseases I can get, I selected for them. Now about 98% are potato leaf. This year, about half of the Purple Dog Creeks came up potato leaf. Tatianastomatobase clearly states regular leaf. I will grow out both versions this year and note the differences in production, growth, and disease resistance.

Is this a normal occurance and should I be doing this kind of selection? If a variety stabilizes to potato leaf, which Granny Cantrells has, is it a more desirable plant?

**nctomatoman** · May 1, 2012

There are strong views on this. My feeling is that leaf change is/should be a very, very rare occurrence. For example....I've been growing Cherokee Purple for many years, and have started literally thousands of seeds. Never, ever anything other than regular leaf. In fact, pretty much all of the regular leaf varieties i start for my seedling business are nothing but regular leaf. And that is at it should be, as regular leaf is dominant.

Now, there is the incidence of the occasional regular leaf coming out of potato leaf - which is more than likely evidence of a cross - and growing out the regular leaf confirms this - it is typically a bit more vigorous, often pretty ordinary - and saved seed gives lots of segregation of fruit type.

People talk about a variety being "unstable as to leaf type" - but in those cases, I've worked a few years and had no problems getting all regular or all potato - so there is no instability at all.

So my theory is that the vast majority of wrong leaf shapes are inadvertent seed mix ups - a stray seed from a wrong leaf type gets into the mix. Or, a cross gets into the mix - and you have this leaf type confusion.

That's my two cents, anyway.

So I just don't buy the "potato leaf version of XX or regular leaf version of YY". A specific, stable variety should have a specific leaf shape. If you are working out a cross, I would much rather have a variety given a completely different name than just XX potato leaf or YY regular leaf.

The mass of confusion that is being created already - and it really is due to the popularity of heirlooms and so many more people involved in seed saving, sharing and selling - will never be unraveled as it is!

nancyruhl · May 1, 2012

Thanks, Craig, for you insight.

The Granny Cantrells PL came from purchased seed. Other than leaf shape, there seems to be no difference The Purple Dog Creek came from seed saved last year. The plant was not isolated, so there was the chance of cross pollination. We'll see what grows out.

**carolyn137** · May 1, 2012

Nancy, years ago I used to think that a PL version of an RL came about when a particular variety was heterozygous for leaf form and then mutated to homozygous recessive, which is PL.

And indeed that may happen, but very very rarely as Craig mentioned.

But as time went on and talks here and there I realized that a PL version of an RL may be very different from the RL version in ways other than just leaf form.

And that's because there are several kinds of mutations that can happen with the DNA such as looping out, inversions, repeats, I know, I don't like to be technical here, but I can't help it b'c it's true, and with such mutations MORE than one gene can be involved and that can alter expression such that the variety is not what it should be.

Take something like Cherokee Purple for which there are a couple of PL versions, the one Jere Gettle found that he named Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf and Bill M named his Spudakee.

There are some folks who have grown out CP RL and the two PL versions at the same time and some say they are the same and an equal number say they are not. Different geographic regions, how the plants were grown, what amendments were used, how much and when, what the weather is in any one season, etc., are all are variables that play into how a variety performs. And taste is personal and perceptual and actually has a human genetic component involved.

Recently I was sent a PL version of Indian Stripe and offered it in my most recent seed offer here. The person who sent me the seeds saw no difference between the two and nor did I.

When Martha ( gardenmama) and I were still posting in the AOL Tomato Forum, all those years ago, she sent me seeds for what she called KBX which I compared with my own Kellogg's Breakfast, and other than leaf form I saw no difference between the two, however, since in my experience PL varieties are more tolerant of the common foliage diseases I preferred to grow KBX from that point on.

So I do NOT immediately conclude that a PL version of an original RL variety is the same in ALL ways except for leaf form, based on what I said above about DNA mutations that are NOT always what are called point mutations, meaning only ONE gene has been altrered.

Tormato · May 1, 2012

Nancy,

To add to the confusion, Granny Cantrell's is a pink (clear skin) tomato. Is that what you're getting from both the RL's and PL's?

Gary

nancyruhl · May 1, 2012

Excellent question. I will look at the skin color this summer. I have seen Granny Cantrells listed as both pink and red. The original version I bought was Granny Cantrells German Red.

I am part of fundraiser, and a big draw is the heirloom tomatoes we grow. Looking over the seedlings of Kelloggs Breakfast, I noticed a couple of potato leaf plants. I tried to grow KBX 3 times with no germination in the past, so I gave up. Here were a couple of plants that appeared spontaneously amoung all the RL ones. Remarkable trait of the PL ones was that the much larger than the RL plants.

Carolyn, as you say, you have found PL plants more tolerant of foliage disease. I think elsewhere it has been discussed that PL plants are also more productive and vigorous. Accordingly, wouldn't it be wise to continue growing out spontaneously appearing PL versions of any tomatoes we grow?

**nctomatoman** · May 1, 2012

Granny Cantrell is a pink tomato. There is simply a lot of confusion about red vs pink - and I suspect that some people see the color distinction much more clearly than others. And really, some people just think that a pink tomato is red, esp if they've not seen a range of differently colored tomatoes. Same thing happens with purple vs brown - I often wonder if it is an ability to perceive the impact of yellow vs clear skin.

**carolyn137** · May 1, 2012

Carolyn, as you say, you have found PL plants more tolerant of foliage disease. I think elsewhere it has been discussed that PL plants are also more productive and vigorous. Accordingly, wouldn't it be wise to continue growing out spontaneously appearing PL versions of any tomatoes we grow?

******

Yes, I and many others have found PL varieties to be mroe tolerant of common foliage diseases but many have not.

And yes, I know that some have said that PL plants are more productive and vigorous but I don't agree with that at all, after growing 3,000 plus varieties and many of them PL varieties.

You ask is it wise to grow out spontaneously appearing PL versions of ANY tomatoes you grow and here's how I feel about that.

First, as discussed above you can't assume that a PL version of an original RL is the same as the RL except for leaf form. I think it would be best if anyone wants to look into it to grow the PL and RL versions at the same time in the same season.

And I also think that it would take more than one person doing that to conclude that the PL version is the same as the original RL version and I spoke to that above when discussing Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe and their RL and now PL versions.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if you personally want to grow out any spontaneously appearing PL of ANY variety you grow, then go for it, but be sure you grow out both RL and PL versions at the same time. And then if others agree with you if you say they are the same except for leaf form then be sure that others do the same with the same variety.

In my opinion there are far too may PL's out there with variety names attached when it really isn't know if the RL and PL versions ARE the same.

I just hate to see wrong varieties being distributed when talking about RL vs PL for the same variety. No different really when it comes to fruit colors/

Amana Orange is a beefsteak and Amana Pink is a heart:

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Amana_Pink

That's one good example so why call the pink version Amana when it isn't? Looking at the history on this one should indicate that, at least to me, it should not have Amana as part of the name.

And there are many other examples of other varieties that are not the same as the originals, whether it be leaf form, or fruit color, or fruit shape or plant habit and yet the original name is part of those changed varieties.

And one has also distinguish between seed DNA mutations and somatic mutations that occur in the DNA of a plant cell and the latter are permanent and heritable while the former may not be.

Am I making sense here to you?

**nctomatoman** · May 2, 2012

I've really not seen a good correlation between leaf shape, disease tolerance, or yield. It is not only variety specific, but season and location specific - so many variables! For me in NC, for example, Cherokee Purple always excels - rarely if ever diseased, yields well even in difficult seasons, consistent flavor. Three pink potato leaf varieties - Brandywine varies widely year to year with respect to disease and yield, Stump of the World is very consistently healthy and high yielding, and Polish seems to yield better than Brandywine most years but is still more variable than Stump. And the list could go on and on......

b54red · May 2, 2012

Since I feel like I live in the disease center of the world for tomatoes, I have to agree with nctomatoman. It seems that it is more important the variety than the leaf type when it comes to the way a plant performs in a given area. I always have a mix of both potato leaf and regular leaf plants each year and it is always the variety that stands out not the leaf type.

nancyruhl · May 2, 2012

Carolyn, you're making sense to me. I have no background in genetics and I appreciate that information. Delving into it on my own would be head spinning, I know.

I can do my own evaluation on the Purple Dog Creek this summer and see what happens in the disease resistance and growth and production categories. I will need to get some purchased Granny Cantrells seed for comparision next season. And do a little comparision with disease resistance and growth and production on all my PL and RL varieties, sp I can see if the difference is remarkable for me.

Aphid · May 3, 2012

crossed seed ..uugghh

kinda getting tired of planting crossed seed people have sent me. and have stopped trading.

I have grown purple dog creek 2 seasons now ,It's regular leaf ,bagging blossoms is a standard part of my seed saving.. it really helps

there's enough varieties out there already I figure

Pyrrho · May 3, 2012

I don't have much to add here, but it's worth noting that I received an offer for some Granny Cantrell PL seeds back in January, 2011 from Gary Millwood. At the time, I didn't see it commercially available anywhere, but that might have since changed.

**carolyn137** · May 3, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrho

I don't have much to add here, but it's worth noting that I received an offer for some Granny Cantrell PL seeds back in January, 2011 from Gary Millwood. At the time, I didn't see it commercially available anywhere, but that might have since changed.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Granny_Cantrell

It was available in 2007 as the RL as you can see from the above link and I don't think anyone would be deliberately selling seeds for a PL Granny Cantrell.

On the page for this variety Craig L made the same comment he did here, and that's that the epidermis in clear so the variety is pink fruited.

Sometimes pinks can be such dark pinks that they look red and well I remember back in the Early 90's listing Anna Russian as a red b'c it looked that way to me, but back then I didn't know enough to check the epidermis colors.

Pyrrho · May 3, 2012

Just to be clear, in my correspondence with Gary Millwood, I mentioned that I was growing GC in the upcoming year (2011), and he responded with the offer for seeds of the PL version. He mentioned that it was his third year growing the PL version, and that he planned to offer plants at Thieneman's Nursery that year.

I don't know if the plants were offered or what other sources of the PL version there might be, but there are now both RL and PL versions out there.

I'm not sure exactly where, but I'm pretty sure I have seen GC PL appear on some grow lists recently.

May 1, 2012	#1
nancyruhl Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan Posts: 1,051	Potato leaf vs regular leaf I have a lot of confusion about this and I know that you knowledgable folks can help. A couple of years ago, I purchased seed for Lindas Faux, a potato leaf version of Akers West Virginia that was introduced a couple of years ago. Then there is KBX, potato leaf version of Kelloggs Breakfast, that is touted to have better growth and production. A few years ago, I found a couple of potato leaf seedling amoung my Granny Cantrells German Red. Needing all the help with leaf diseases I can get, I selected for them. Now about 98% are potato leaf. This year, about half of the Purple Dog Creeks came up potato leaf. Tatianastomatobase clearly states regular leaf. I will grow out both versions this year and note the differences in production, growth, and disease resistance. Is this a normal occurance and should I be doing this kind of selection? If a variety stabilizes to potato leaf, which Granny Cantrells has, is it a more desirable plant?

May 1, 2012	#2
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	There are strong views on this. My feeling is that leaf change is/should be a very, very rare occurrence. For example....I've been growing Cherokee Purple for many years, and have started literally thousands of seeds. Never, ever anything other than regular leaf. In fact, pretty much all of the regular leaf varieties i start for my seedling business are nothing but regular leaf. And that is at it should be, as regular leaf is dominant. Now, there is the incidence of the occasional regular leaf coming out of potato leaf - which is more than likely evidence of a cross - and growing out the regular leaf confirms this - it is typically a bit more vigorous, often pretty ordinary - and saved seed gives lots of segregation of fruit type. People talk about a variety being "unstable as to leaf type" - but in those cases, I've worked a few years and had no problems getting all regular or all potato - so there is no instability at all. So my theory is that the vast majority of wrong leaf shapes are inadvertent seed mix ups - a stray seed from a wrong leaf type gets into the mix. Or, a cross gets into the mix - and you have this leaf type confusion. That's my two cents, anyway. So I just don't buy the "potato leaf version of XX or regular leaf version of YY". A specific, stable variety should have a specific leaf shape. If you are working out a cross, I would much rather have a variety given a completely different name than just XX potato leaf or YY regular leaf. The mass of confusion that is being created already - and it really is due to the popularity of heirlooms and so many more people involved in seed saving, sharing and selling - will never be unraveled as it is! __________________ Craig

May 1, 2012	#4
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Nancy, years ago I used to think that a PL version of an RL came about when a particular variety was heterozygous for leaf form and then mutated to homozygous recessive, which is PL. And indeed that may happen, but very very rarely as Craig mentioned. But as time went on and talks here and there I realized that a PL version of an RL may be very different from the RL version in ways other than just leaf form. And that's because there are several kinds of mutations that can happen with the DNA such as looping out, inversions, repeats, I know, I don't like to be technical here, but I can't help it b'c it's true, and with such mutations MORE than one gene can be involved and that can alter expression such that the variety is not what it should be. Take something like Cherokee Purple for which there are a couple of PL versions, the one Jere Gettle found that he named Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf and Bill M named his Spudakee. There are some folks who have grown out CP RL and the two PL versions at the same time and some say they are the same and an equal number say they are not. Different geographic regions, how the plants were grown, what amendments were used, how much and when, what the weather is in any one season, etc., are all are variables that play into how a variety performs. And taste is personal and perceptual and actually has a human genetic component involved. Recently I was sent a PL version of Indian Stripe and offered it in my most recent seed offer here. The person who sent me the seeds saw no difference between the two and nor did I. When Martha ( gardenmama) and I were still posting in the AOL Tomato Forum, all those years ago, she sent me seeds for what she called KBX which I compared with my own Kellogg's Breakfast, and other than leaf form I saw no difference between the two, however, since in my experience PL varieties are more tolerant of the common foliage diseases I preferred to grow KBX from that point on. So I do NOT immediately conclude that a PL version of an original RL variety is the same in ALL ways except for leaf form, based on what I said above about DNA mutations that are NOT always what are called point mutations, meaning only ONE gene has been altrered. __________________ Carolyn

May 1, 2012	#7
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	Granny Cantrell is a pink tomato. There is simply a lot of confusion about red vs pink - and I suspect that some people see the color distinction much more clearly than others. And really, some people just think that a pink tomato is red, esp if they've not seen a range of differently colored tomatoes. Same thing happens with purple vs brown - I often wonder if it is an ability to perceive the impact of yellow vs clear skin. __________________ Craig

May 1, 2012	#8
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Carolyn, as you say, you have found PL plants more tolerant of foliage disease. I think elsewhere it has been discussed that PL plants are also more productive and vigorous. Accordingly, wouldn't it be wise to continue growing out spontaneously appearing PL versions of any tomatoes we grow? ****** Yes, I and many others have found PL varieties to be mroe tolerant of common foliage diseases but many have not. And yes, I know that some have said that PL plants are more productive and vigorous but I don't agree with that at all, after growing 3,000 plus varieties and many of them PL varieties. You ask is it wise to grow out spontaneously appearing PL versions of ANY tomatoes you grow and here's how I feel about that. First, as discussed above you can't assume that a PL version of an original RL is the same as the RL except for leaf form. I think it would be best if anyone wants to look into it to grow the PL and RL versions at the same time in the same season. And I also think that it would take more than one person doing that to conclude that the PL version is the same as the original RL version and I spoke to that above when discussing Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe and their RL and now PL versions. So I guess what I'm saying is that if you personally want to grow out any spontaneously appearing PL of ANY variety you grow, then go for it, but be sure you grow out both RL and PL versions at the same time. And then if others agree with you if you say they are the same except for leaf form then be sure that others do the same with the same variety. In my opinion there are far too may PL's out there with variety names attached when it really isn't know if the RL and PL versions ARE the same. I just hate to see wrong varieties being distributed when talking about RL vs PL for the same variety. No different really when it comes to fruit colors/ Amana Orange is a beefsteak and Amana Pink is a heart: http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Amana_Pink That's one good example so why call the pink version Amana when it isn't? Looking at the history on this one should indicate that, at least to me, it should not have Amana as part of the name. And there are many other examples of other varieties that are not the same as the originals, whether it be leaf form, or fruit color, or fruit shape or plant habit and yet the original name is part of those changed varieties. And one has also distinguish between seed DNA mutations and somatic mutations that occur in the DNA of a plant cell and the latter are permanent and heritable while the former may not be. Am I making sense here to you? __________________ Carolyn

May 1, 2012	#5
Tormato Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: MA Posts: 4,971	Nancy, To add to the confusion, Granny Cantrell's is a pink (clear skin) tomato. Is that what you're getting from both the RL's and PL's? Gary

May 2, 2012	#9
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	I've really not seen a good correlation between leaf shape, disease tolerance, or yield. It is not only variety specific, but season and location specific - so many variables! For me in NC, for example, Cherokee Purple always excels - rarely if ever diseased, yields well even in difficult seasons, consistent flavor. Three pink potato leaf varieties - Brandywine varies widely year to year with respect to disease and yield, Stump of the World is very consistently healthy and high yielding, and Polish seems to yield better than Brandywine most years but is still more variable than Stump. And the list could go on and on...... __________________ Craig

May 2, 2012	#10
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	Since I feel like I live in the disease center of the world for tomatoes, I have to agree with nctomatoman. It seems that it is more important the variety than the leaf type when it comes to the way a plant performs in a given area. I always have a mix of both potato leaf and regular leaf plants each year and it is always the variety that stands out not the leaf type.

May 3, 2012	#12
Aphid Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Nashville TN zone 6-B Posts: 133	crossed seed ..uugghh kinda getting tired of planting crossed seed people have sent me. and have stopped trading. I have grown purple dog creek 2 seasons now ,It's regular leaf ,bagging blossoms is a standard part of my seed saving.. it really helps there's enough varieties out there already I figure

May 3, 2012	#13
Pyrrho Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 75	I don't have much to add here, but it's worth noting that I received an offer for some Granny Cantrell PL seeds back in January, 2011 from Gary Millwood. At the time, I didn't see it commercially available anywhere, but that might have since changed.