Black Krim or Cherokee Purple

[gardenjefe]

I vote impossible to tell, but maybe one of you know. I clumsily dropped my seed starts this year, and well my 2 black varieties I can't tell apart at all. Either way, it will be eaten, it will taste wonderful.

[jsnyder]

Hard to tell, if I had to guess i'd say Purple Cherokee simply based on shape. Every time I grow black krim the top surface is always more "creased" than the (smoother) top on Purple Cherokee. This is just speculation though, any number of environmental factors can make a tomato look one way or another.

Either way, it will be eaten, it will taste wonderful.

Agree 100%

for reference sake Purple Cherokee being held, Black Krim in the background

Black Krim

[bcday]

Peel it and check the color of the epidermis. Cherokee Purple has a clear epidermis. Black Krim's is yellow.

[nctomatoman]

Actually, Nancy, if Black Krim is showing a yellow skin, it isn't what Black Krim should be (I was one of the first to grow it from the original listed source to the SSE in 1990 - it and Cherokee Purple were near identical in color, both with clear skin - and each year I've grown Black Krim it was a purple, or pink/black).

Distinguishing Black Krim from Cherokee Purple for me is a matter of flavor and internal seed structure more than anything else - ChP has a very distinct sweet character - BK has far less sweetness/more tart character. And much seedier, with larger locules.

[bcday]

Methinks I will be growing out some of my Black Krim next year, LOL. I've certainly read that it should have yellow epi and could have sworn that mine did. Gotta check that out! I don't have any in the garden this year -- but wait -- a nursery a mile up the road from me had one or two for sale last weekend. Do I have room for one more plant? How do I get into these things?!?

[nctomatoman]

I think the issue is that there is SO MUCH confusion and mixed up seeds for many of the so-called black varieties. The very first of the yellow skinned blacks (the browns) were Black Prince and Black Plum - then Cherokee Chocolate appeared - now there are so many - and it is a real mess trying to keep it all straight!

[JamesL]

Craig,
If you could only grow one black tomato what would it be? I love C purple, but I have never grown any other varieties.

[nctomatoman]

I've grown 40-50 of them. Cherokee Purple, JD Special C Tex, Price's Purple (or Purple Price), Indian Stripe, Cherokee Chocolate, Noire de Charbonneuse are to me the cream of the crop....and to those the new dwarf variety Rosella Purple now joins that group.

[JamesL]

That's not helpful! I ask for one and you give me seven!
Looked up Rosella Purple. Sounds interesting.

[nctomatoman]

OK - if I were to pick one, Cherokee Purple. Lots of reasons of course!

[JamesL]

I really appreciate you being able to cull down to 7!
I will always grow Cherokee P.
Figure I should try another black in expansion space.
Was eyeballing JD Special C Tex, but Rosella Purple is now going to get a long look.
If it is really only growing to 3-4 feet I could get 3 in one container.

[gardenjefe]

jsnyder, thanks for the pics. You're right about environmental. My tallest plant, thought for sure CP, but fruits looks like your BK and maturing slower. On the epidermis thing, I got conflicting advice on that too. I think it will come down to taste.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

Actually, Nancy, if Black Krim is showing a yellow skin, it isn't what Black Krim should be (I was one of the first to grow it from the original listed source to the SSE in 1990 - it and Cherokee Purple were near identical in color, both with clear skin - and each year I've grown Black Krim it was a purple, or pink/black).

Distinguishing Black Krim from Cherokee Purple for me is a matter of flavor and internal seed structure more than anything else - ChP has a very distinct sweet character - BK has far less sweetness/more tart character. And much seedier, with larger locules.

Hmmmm, I wonder Craig. I have always referred to the so called blacks as pink/blacks with a clear epidermis, such as Cherokee Purple, Indian Stripe, Black from Tula, etc. and red blacks such as Black Krim ( and its namesake Noire de Crimmee) and Carbon and Black Prince, etc, that have a yellow epidermis.

And there are only a few varieties that I think really do have some purple and those would include Purple Calabash, Noire des Cosebeauf, Purple Smudge and Orange fleshed Purple Smudge.

I'm wondering if what you see and I see and Nancy sees might be due to you growing tomatoes in the south where the UV is higher than we get here and if there are other environmental factors involved as well.

Do you remember which variety it was, possibly Green Giant, I can't remember but you would, where you said that you got no amber blush, sent seeds to both me and Jeff Fleming and we both got an amber blush and there was this talk of environmental factors influencing gene expression at the time. Jeff and I garden in the north while you garden in the south and there were others in the south that also didn't get an amber blush. Actually now I remember e-mailing Reinhard about it and found out that he grows most of his tomatoes in a greenhouse where it's pretty darn warm most of the time, which explains why he didn't get an amber blush with Green Giant.

I think I remember reading something somewhere that temperature and UV intensity can influence gene expression so that maybe that's an answer.

Well I can remember that when I first grew Anna Russian, seeds from you, that it looked red to me, it really did, and all those yars ago I didn't know about checking epidermis color and first SSE listed it as red rather than the pink it really is.

I also remember Keith M making some comments and showing some pictures to show that it's not always epidermis color that's the main determinant in final exterior color.

So it doesn't surprise me that folks growing the same variety can see different influences at work that can alter the expression of some genes.

It took me a while to find the link I wanted, but here it is:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...529042.html?13

This whole thread about blacks and epidermis color is interesting, I think, but please read the mulio post of April 21 where Keith says that both flesh and epidermis color interact and presents data on gf alleles from a study by Barry .

He knows more great tomato genetics than most others I know, IMO.

As for me, I do better with varieties of dark bittersweet chocolate most of the time.

[gardenjefe]

Wow. You guys are smart. I need to step it up!

[camochef]

I've spent years growing "Black" tomatoes and have grown everyone listed here so far except Rosella Purple and was surprised to see that what I consider to be the best tasting "Blacks" weren't included. They would be Dana's Dusky Rose, Amazon Chocolate, and Bear Creek.
While those like Cherokee Purple and Black Krim have gained in popularity the past 7 or 8 years, I find them to have drawbacks that I don't find in my favorites. For example: Black Krims tend to crack 7 out of 10 years. Taste is good, although I've never been able to taste that natural smokiness many describe.
Cherokee purple is just too inconsistant in taste for my liking. Even in the same year, you can have ten planted side by side in the same row and have one plant that produces great tasting tomatoes and 9 others that don't compare. They also lack in shelf life when compared to some of the better tasting varieties. They do however make a great sauce, especially when combined 50/50 with some of the better pink Brandywines.
I realize everyone has different tastes and varieties do perform better in some locales than others, but here in south central Pa. i'll stick with my favorites.
Enjoy!
Camo