Member discussion regarding the methods, varieties and merits of growing tomatoes.
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October 24, 2012 | #1 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 637
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Collecting Leaves Now
Been busy gathering leaves and filling big black lawn and leaf bags.
1. So what is the best way to use them? I don't have a large enough area to make a composting station. I thought by storing them in the black plastic bags they would decompose and I could til them into the soil in the Spring when I wake up the garden areas. The area where I want to til them into the soil is currently all English Ivy. I really dislike English Ivy as a ground cover. I'm in the process of pulling it all out. (very time consuming for sure.) I will be planting that area with flowers and a few small trees such as Dogwood or shrubs such as hydrangeas. It is a woodlands setting on a hill in front of my house. 2. I often see the words "oak mould" or "oak Mold" in gardening magazines etc. Is this just oak leaves that have decomposed? Is the use of Oak better than maple or elm or ash leaves? My thought is that leave compost except for Walnut is all good? Thanks for any feed back on leaves for compost. |
October 24, 2012 | #2 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
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The best and easiest way to use them is as a mulch. This lets you avoid all that tedious weeding. The only thing you need to do is mow the area, lay a barrier like cardboard or news paper, then pile the leaves or grass clippings on top of all that.
If you want to plant a tree or a shrub or a tomato there next spring, just pull the mulch back, cut a hole in the paper to allow you to plant, and pull the mulch back around your seedling. If you have a very large area and want to avoid all the work in unfolding all those news papers. Then try using this Bogus paper
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Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture |
October 24, 2012 | #3 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 6a - NE Tennessee
Posts: 4,538
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Also leave out Hickory Tree leaves, bark, etc. on any area where you intend to grow peppers, tomatoes, egg plant, and other veggies.
For your English Ivy, I would recommend you use a chemical called "Eliminator". It is a spray that will definitely kill that stuff, but it doesn't work fast. Walmart carries it and you can read the stats on it there. I use it twice a year now on the main garden. What I like most is that it kills what it touches, but then degrades quickly in as little as one day. No residuals in the soil and no problems with overspray floating over to the neighbors yard. The weeds and such will come back if they are reseeded, but the plant you spray will die and brown out in about one to two weeks. Good luck on the clearing and google "Juglone" to see what other plants produce the tomato killing chemical.
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Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch |
October 24, 2012 | #4 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Houston, TX - 9a
Posts: 211
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"Leafmould" is considered different than regular compost because it's a slow, cold process dominated by fungi and actinomycetes. Dry/fallen autumn leaves are low in nutrients overall, have a high carbon to nitrogen ratio, and are usually high in lignin. How closely each species of tree hold to these characteristics varies. Compost made from these leaves aren't as high in nutrients as good traditional compost, but are really great for other uses: mulch, soil conditioner, source of humic substances, suppression of soil-borne diseases, general improvement of fertility.
Lignin is very difficult to degrade, so the community of fungi and bacteria that take up residence in leaf litter is distinct. Fallen oak leaves are considered ideal for this purpose because they're in the middle of the road. They're decomposed within a year or two, are fairly low in nitrogen and high in lignin. Elm, maple and ash leaves are a bit higher in nutrients (and nitrogen), and less lignified. If these are dry though, they still make good leafmould. Some other species, especially legume trees, decompose so fast that they usually disintegrate before have a chance to dry out. Evergreen trees like holly, southern magnolia, and conifers can take so long to decompose that they're best kept out of leafmould compost. Other than keeping out the black walnut (and other juglone producers) and eucalyptus, I don't really bother with any of the rules though. Anything that's dry enough to be easily gathered is fair game. I crush what I can by hand. Then you just keep them moist in big black plastic bags with a few holes for drainage and aeration over the winter. Or you can spread a thick layer with a nitrogen source in the fall so that its ready in the spring, or even just spread it as mulch or topdressing whenever it's needed. Note my near tropical climate allows me a lot of leeway... things decompose so fast here, the line between mulch and compost topdressing is very blurred. Last edited by greentiger87; October 26, 2012 at 04:35 PM. |
October 25, 2012 | #5 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 637
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greentiger87,
Thanks so much for all this great info. This was exactly what I was looking for. ContainerTed, If all else fails (like my back digging and pulling ) I'll try your info on a chemical called "Eliminator". I wanted to go organic if possible. However, I did use Roundup 2 years ago to hit it good near the end of our growing season and then worked like crazy to do the dig 'n pull method. I've already run up against the sealsonal clock. I'll go check it out tonight after dinner. My back and hands are already talking to me! RedBaron, Thanks, I would love to shread up the leaves in the lawn mower, if I owned one. Our entire lot is a woodland setting, no grass at all. It is either trees or ground cover or retaining walls and a huge drop off into a ravine. I was going to use paper and cardboard and any organic stuff I could get my hands on to till under in the Spring to add organic material and texture to the hill. But first I want as much of the Ivy gone as possible. If only I could use someone's magic wand for this task. Thanks all. Much appreciated. |
October 25, 2012 | #6 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,488
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Quote:
Here is one example that I guarantee no Ivy will break through. No dig garden construction Here is a slightly different version. As you can see even beginners have success first try! Lasagna garden Here is another. Now this is a well organised family! Lasagna Garden, No Dig Garden But these guys all work WAY more than me! I skip all those in between steps and simply lay paper or cardboard and cover it with mulch. More like Ruth Stouts no work method. Mulching That isn't me stretched out on the sofa, but it certainly is a like minded gardener! A hard day of gardening for me is 1 hour of work and 2 hours nap time! PS Here is another also very similar method. Notice that there is also a way to use a roll (in this case cardboard) as your barrier if you are not recycling cardboard boxes or newspaper. Sheet Mulching This should give you plenty of ideas. Just think about your own circumstances and which one might be best for you. Or simply go with the general concept and work out a "hybrid" method based on how much work, time and money you want to spend on it.
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Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture Last edited by Redbaron; October 26, 2012 at 06:52 AM. |
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October 25, 2012 | #7 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,794
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Here's a useful webpage on how to compost leaves, that also tells how to make "leaf mould" for use as high quality mulch, and gives a list of different tree leaves that are "good" for compost (faster) or "bad" (slow). Ash, elm and maple are all on the "good" list. Oak leaves have more lignins and are slower to break down - maybe that's why the "oak leaf mould" makes a long lasting mulch.
http://www.the-compost-gardener.com/...ng-leaves.html Early stages of leaf decomposition are all about the C:N ratio, but as that process continues, what's left are the lignins (which decompose more slowly). Oak leaf breakdown products are also more acidic, cw ash, elm, maple and birch which are relatively calcium rich so higher pH. Nitrogen fixers like alder or leguminous trees have high N in the leaves, which is why they break down faster - and speed up decomposition in a mixture of leaves. |
October 26, 2012 | #8 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Northern Minnesota - zone 3
Posts: 3,231
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Thanks for the link, bower. I have woods all around me, so my leaves are a mix of maple, oak, aspen, ash, birch and what have you, so my percentage of "good" to "bad" is pretty ideal. With good advice from this board last fall, I bought a leaf shredder and have been very happy with it. I created two additional new 4'x12' beds last fall, layering cardboard over heavy clay soil, grass thatch and weeds. I filled the frame with old black manure and newly shredded leaves in several layers. I kept it well watered and damp til freeze up. Not much had visibly changed by spring, but I planted shallow rooted things like peas and beans, and also some onions and some zucchini and melon plants went in later. Everything did fine, and by the end of the summer, the cardboard and grass thatch had dissolved and I could actually turn over the hard clay pan underneath and mix it into the new soil. I don't have time to wait for the leaves to compost, but the shredding makes it easier to dig them into the clay, and I think they break up the sticky clumping texture of clay. This fall I topped all my raised beds with a couple inch layer of shredded leaves, and dug them in, then topped it with a thin layer of shredded leaves to prevent weed seeds from sprouting in the spring. I hope to get enough leaves shredded this fall so I can actually use them for additional mulch next summer. And maybe one of these years I will do enough to compost. If you have sandy, light soil, your results may not be the same.
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Dee ************** |
October 26, 2012 | #9 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,794
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Dee, I really envy you those gorgeous deciduous forests as I've seen on visits to the eastern States. The native soil where I live (if any) is a heavy clay of pH 4, also full of rocks of all sizes up to boulders. Conifers dominate the woods, and their litter is also acid and full of lignins. We do have some birch and pin cherry which tolerate the same soils, and other small shrubs, but their leaves don't amount to much. One windy day and... where did they all go? (that's what happened to my fall colour, yesterday).
I have a lot of perennial herbs in my garden, and oregano is the most invasive, so that is the reliable material I use for composting, for fresh green layers in the summer, and herb straw for browns, too, which I gather up in the spring. Oregano and a few others will produce lots of biomass even growing in the worst gravel, as long as there's full sun. We do have access to plenty of seaweed, which makes a great hot layer in the pile. Still it takes a full year. I've planted quite a few trees here with thoughts of their autumn leaves, including maple, ash, and oak, but they have a tough time due to the poor soil, short season, and the ravages of moose and snowshoe hare. Still, we live in hope... I might live long enough to see them outgrow it. Or at least, bigger bonsai! European Alder was the most successful, very fast grower and tolerant of heavy browsing and other adversities. Those are high N leaves too, but on the acidic side. The ash were slow growing, but are starting to look like trees - hares don't seem to like em. |
October 26, 2012 | #10 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 637
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Quote:
Great Link BOWER! |
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October 26, 2012 | #11 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 637
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Quote:
I've used shredded paper from our office when making compost in the small uit next to the house. It breaks down really fast. After reading all the posts here, I think I'm going to have the hubby just finish clipping out the ivy first, then addin my layers. First, I can go collect all the newspaper and cardboard I can gather from the neighboors and spred it on top of the ivy stubble - then leaves, a layer of shredded paper, clay soil sprinkles to help hold it down, repeat with paper, cardboard, leaves, etc and hope it stays in place throughout the winter. My area is after all on a hill!!! Any more ideas on how to make it stay put? My 2nd concern is to be sure the light is completely cut out of the ground layer since ivy only requires 1% light to grow. The stems from the ivy are all over the place, criss crossed and huge. That is why the hubby is going to finish cutting as much down as possible, but I'll leave the cut off parts right on the ground. In fact. I will start my first layer with shredded paper from out office. That will work into the nooks and crannies better than newspapers. ???? Wish I had a leave shredder! |
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October 27, 2012 | #12 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 1,818
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If you have a weed eater, you can fill a barrel up with leaves and weed eat them. It chops them up super fine
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Barbee |
October 27, 2012 | #13 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 637
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No weed eater, it died and we don't (didn't) have a need for it with this very natural setting of ours. sigh : (
What DH used is a hedge trimmer to cut down the ivy as it became messy looking in past years. It works quit well to renew the ivy in the Spring. That ivy has a complete substructure of serious root systems. It is Saturday and the weather stinks for garden work. We actually have a wind chill factor of 37 today. Maybe the wind will dry out some of the rain from the past 2 days??? Must get my leaf project going. |
October 28, 2012 | #14 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Houston, TX - 9a
Posts: 211
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October 28, 2012 | #15 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Houston, TX - 9a
Posts: 211
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Quote:
It's probably too late in ohio, but could you seed a bunch of rye grass or something on top of it? |
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