How NOT to do the lasagna method

ScottinAtlanta · November 3, 2012

I built 5 large raised beds last year, and decided to speed things up with lasagna soil building. I put into 4-5 inches of mulched leaves, 3-4 inches dirt, 4-5 inches mulched leaves, etc, until I reached 12 inches deep. Then I waited three months for everything to compost, and then planted. Great, huh?

Not really. The layers of mulched leaves compacted into thin strips of organic material between inches of hard soil. When I cut through it, it looks like an archeological dig, with thick layers of brown clay and dirt, and little strips of black material every few inches. Even worse, the soil became hard, and the plant roots could not reach even the first layer of mulch. The final result was 12 inches of hard dirt, and thin strips of organic compressed in distinct layers.

What did I do wrong? Well, first, the layers of dirt were too thick. I didn't realize how much even deep layers of mulched leaves would compact down under the weight of soil - 5 inches of mulch to a layer about 1/8th inch of actual compost.

Second, the dirt I used had too much clay in it, and became hard as rock. So the plant roots could not penetrate even the first few inches.

This fall, I am digging up the whole thing, and starting over with compost and organic material, with small quantities of soil (about 1 in 10). I will use mulched green kudzu leaves as my main compost. I am not layering, but mixing the whole thing with a tiller. I will topseed clover and then turn it over next spring 2 weeks before planting my seedlings.

Any other ideas?

gixxerific · November 3, 2012

Woah Nelly don't trash the whole project just yet. What you started with is decent it just some time and more work. Don't take out the soil in there just keep adding more organic stuff to it. In time it will be beautiful. Clay soil is actually not bad soil just compact when fluffed up with oter organic material it can produce some amazing plants.

Do you add your grass clippings to it. That can help as well. If you are starting a new bed I belive it should all be mixed in. Some will think otherwise but I have productive gardens and that is how I do it. After time you can move away from tilling more and more but at first especially wiht clay soil it needs mixed in so it isn't so hard.

You will be fine just keep adding. Lots of compost is awesome as well. In fact in my opinion the 3 best things for a garden are compost, compost, and more compost.

Redbaron · November 3, 2012

Well I have an idea that could save you a lot of work. Are you intent on starting over? Or would you be willing to give nature a chance to correct your mistakes?

ScottinAtlanta · November 3, 2012

Any good idea is a good idea.

Redbaron · November 3, 2012

Try this. Take a broad fork or garden fork and break up the hardpan. Don't have to turn it. Just poking holes through the hard pan layers and wiggle the fork back and forth a couple times. The entire process should take 5 minutes for all the beds. If it is taking too long then you are over doing it. We are not tilling it. Just cracking the hard pan up for drainage.

Get a bucket of cracked corn, green sand and coffee grounds. There is no hard and fast rule what or how much. We are just feeding worms here. A 5 gallon bucket consisting of 1/3 rd each is plenty probably for all 5 beds. Doesn't take much. You could also substitute poultry feed, alfalfa pellets or whatever. Main thing is some gritty material that is also food for worms. Scatter that on top of the beds thinly and loosely. It should be fine enough that some of it works its way in the cracks made by the broad fork and some stays on top. If it doesn't seem to have done that you can quickly use the broad fork again. Important to remember to be lazy on both these 2 steps. You don't want to over work the soil or put too much dressing on top. It probably took me longer to explain it than for you to do it.

If the soil is dry, now moisten it. Throw on a handful of earthworms. They will be your workers.

Lay 6 layers thick news paper on the soil, or one layer thick cardboard, or buy a roll of bogus paper and roll that out over the bed. Cover with green mulch. I recommend freshly chopped Kudzu or fresh grass clipping or green hay (not straw) or any rich compost you may have. This layer can be as thick as you want. 6 inches or more.

Wet it down to settle it.

Optional on top of this you can add a small layer of brown or yellow mulch. Just to cover 1 inch or less to protect the green mulch from drying out. Like straw or shredded tree leaves.

Basically we are simply doing a properly done sheet mulch over your failed lasagne bed. The worms will mix it up. We wouldn't need them if you were going over lawn. But since we are going over a hardpan failed bed and you want this bed usable next year, we added the worm food and worms. Nature will finish the job for you.

Very important you don't forget the news paper again.

Hope this helps.

kurt · November 3, 2012

Not to highjack your sound suggestions Scott RB.Some additional earthworm contributions often overlooked.http://www.ct.gov/caes/lib/caes/docu...s_01-27-12.pdf

bower · November 4, 2012

One piece of advice for clay soil: never work with it when it's wet. Choose a dry day when the soil is not saturated, even for minimal disturbance but also for any tilling or turning.

Worth1 · November 4, 2012

Forget all of that back breaking work with a broad fork.

Use one of these instead.

Worth

Redbaron · November 4, 2012

LOL Worth!

,

Leave it to a Texan to find a tractor that is more work to climb into than I spend in my whole garden for a year!

clkeiper · November 4, 2012

Worth, Just what exactly is that machine for? I have been around heavy equipment for many years , but that thing doesn't look like anything I have ever seen. The ripper blade is for ????? tile fields, septic fields, what? I love my husbands extra large wheel loader (I use i as a mega wheel barrow) for gardening. It is amazing how many rocks I can fit in a bucket every spring.....every spring!

Oh never mind, Kevin says it is for rock. Gee, I have a few of those here, but I don't think we need that machine to break anymore up. We use dynamite!

Worth1 · November 4, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by clkeiper

Worth, Just what exactly is that machine for? I have been around heavy equipment for many years , but that thing doesn't look like anything I have ever seen. The ripper blade is for ????? tile fields, septic fields, what? I love my husbands extra large wheel loader (I use i as a mega wheel barrow) for gardening. It is amazing how many rocks I can fit in a bucket every spring.....every spring!

Oh never mind, Kevin says it is for rock. Gee, I have a few of those here, but I don't think we need that machine to break anymore up. We use dynamite!

Well it isn't really just for rock.

If you look on the other side of the road you will see what looks like a corn field.
After many years of running a plow over the soil it creates a hard pan that is like concrete.

What this thing does it break up the hard pan.
I suspect that is what they are doing here in the picture.
We used one of these on our place when I was a kid but a wee bit smaller.

I would do a grid all over the garden ripping up the hard pan.
Then haul in composted sawdust spread it out and then till it all in with a tractor.
It was a nice garden after we were finished.

Scott,
Those layers you see in the your garden soil are called horizons.
Each horizon represents an event, human activity or climate change in geologic history.

In your case an archeologist many years from now will be able to tell that you...
Spread out leaves added soil and spread out more leaves.
You then realized your demise and tried to break it up with a broad fork.
He will then find an old receipt where you became frustrated and rented a D9 CAT with a ripper.

Worth

November 3, 2012	#1
ScottinAtlanta Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 2,593	How NOT to do the lasagna method I built 5 large raised beds last year, and decided to speed things up with lasagna soil building. I put into 4-5 inches of mulched leaves, 3-4 inches dirt, 4-5 inches mulched leaves, etc, until I reached 12 inches deep. Then I waited three months for everything to compost, and then planted. Great, huh? Not really. The layers of mulched leaves compacted into thin strips of organic material between inches of hard soil. When I cut through it, it looks like an archeological dig, with thick layers of brown clay and dirt, and little strips of black material every few inches. Even worse, the soil became hard, and the plant roots could not reach even the first layer of mulch. The final result was 12 inches of hard dirt, and thin strips of organic compressed in distinct layers. What did I do wrong? Well, first, the layers of dirt were too thick. I didn't realize how much even deep layers of mulched leaves would compact down under the weight of soil - 5 inches of mulch to a layer about 1/8th inch of actual compost. Second, the dirt I used had too much clay in it, and became hard as rock. So the plant roots could not penetrate even the first few inches. This fall, I am digging up the whole thing, and starting over with compost and organic material, with small quantities of soil (about 1 in 10). I will use mulched green kudzu leaves as my main compost. I am not layering, but mixing the whole thing with a tiller. I will topseed clover and then turn it over next spring 2 weeks before planting my seedlings. Any other ideas?

November 3, 2012	#3
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	Well I have an idea that could save you a lot of work. Are you intent on starting over? Or would you be willing to give nature a chance to correct your mistakes? __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture

November 3, 2012	#5
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	Try this. Take a broad fork or garden fork and break up the hardpan. Don't have to turn it. Just poking holes through the hard pan layers and wiggle the fork back and forth a couple times. The entire process should take 5 minutes for all the beds. If it is taking too long then you are over doing it. We are not tilling it. Just cracking the hard pan up for drainage. Get a bucket of cracked corn, green sand and coffee grounds. There is no hard and fast rule what or how much. We are just feeding worms here. A 5 gallon bucket consisting of 1/3 rd each is plenty probably for all 5 beds. Doesn't take much. You could also substitute poultry feed, alfalfa pellets or whatever. Main thing is some gritty material that is also food for worms. Scatter that on top of the beds thinly and loosely. It should be fine enough that some of it works its way in the cracks made by the broad fork and some stays on top. If it doesn't seem to have done that you can quickly use the broad fork again. Important to remember to be lazy on both these 2 steps. You don't want to over work the soil or put too much dressing on top. It probably took me longer to explain it than for you to do it. If the soil is dry, now moisten it. Throw on a handful of earthworms. They will be your workers. Lay 6 layers thick news paper on the soil, or one layer thick cardboard, or buy a roll of bogus paper and roll that out over the bed. Cover with green mulch. I recommend freshly chopped Kudzu or fresh grass clipping or green hay (not straw) or any rich compost you may have. This layer can be as thick as you want. 6 inches or more. Wet it down to settle it. Optional on top of this you can add a small layer of brown or yellow mulch. Just to cover 1 inch or less to protect the green mulch from drying out. Like straw or shredded tree leaves. Basically we are simply doing a properly done sheet mulch over your failed lasagne bed. The worms will mix it up. We wouldn't need them if you were going over lawn. But since we are going over a hardpan failed bed and you want this bed usable next year, we added the worm food and worms. Nature will finish the job for you. Very important you don't forget the news paper again. Hope this helps. __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture Last edited by Redbaron; November 3, 2012 at 09:39 PM.

November 3, 2012	#6
kurt Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Homestead,Everglades City Fl. Posts: 2,500	Not to highjack your sound suggestions Scott RB.Some additional earthworm contributions often overlooked.http://www.ct.gov/caes/lib/caes/docu...s_01-27-12.pdf __________________ KURT

November 4, 2012	#9
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	LOL Worth!, Leave it to a Texan to find a tractor that is more work to climb into than I spend in my whole garden for a year! __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture

November 3, 2012	#2
gixxerific Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: in the gutter, with my mouth Posts: 123	Woah Nelly don't trash the whole project just yet. What you started with is decent it just some time and more work. Don't take out the soil in there just keep adding more organic stuff to it. In time it will be beautiful. Clay soil is actually not bad soil just compact when fluffed up with oter organic material it can produce some amazing plants. Do you add your grass clippings to it. That can help as well. If you are starting a new bed I belive it should all be mixed in. Some will think otherwise but I have productive gardens and that is how I do it. After time you can move away from tilling more and more but at first especially wiht clay soil it needs mixed in so it isn't so hard. You will be fine just keep adding. Lots of compost is awesome as well. In fact in my opinion the 3 best things for a garden are compost, compost, and more compost.

November 4, 2012	#7
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,794	One piece of advice for clay soil: never work with it when it's wet. Choose a dry day when the soil is not saturated, even for minimal disturbance but also for any tilling or turning.

November 4, 2012	#8
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	Forget all of that back breaking work with a broad fork. Use one of these instead. Worth

November 4, 2012	#10
clkeiper Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: ohio Posts: 4,350	Worth, Just what exactly is that machine for? I have been around heavy equipment for many years , but that thing doesn't look like anything I have ever seen. The ripper blade is for ????? tile fields, septic fields, what? I love my husbands extra large wheel loader (I use i as a mega wheel barrow) for gardening. It is amazing how many rocks I can fit in a bucket every spring.....every spring! Oh never mind, Kevin says it is for rock. Gee, I have a few of those here, but I don't think we need that machine to break anymore up. We use dynamite! __________________ carolyn k Last edited by clkeiper; November 4, 2012 at 07:06 PM.