stronger stalks

peppero · December 16, 2012

can anyone recommend what you can amend the soil with in order to get stronger, thicker stalks on tomato and pepper plants? i would appreciate any recommendations. jon

Doug9345 · December 16, 2012

Are you talking about seedlings or plants in the ground.

For seedlings more light, less temperature and don't over fertilize for the light you have. A fan may help.

If you have tomato plants that aren't in the ground yet that are to spindly, bury them up to the leaves when you transplant them even if you have to lay them sideways to do so. I've buried pepper plants deeper than they grew. I never dug them back up to see if they grew roods from the stem but the didn't die and the deeper burying at least kept them from being broken.

ScottinAtlanta · December 16, 2012

When I dug up my pepper plants a few weeks ago and washed off the root ball, I found a few roots growing out the stem above the root ball. I had planted them deep, and they did indeed put a few roots out. Not many, but a few.

peppero · December 16, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug9345

Are you talking about seedlings or plants in the ground.

For seedlings more light, less temperature and don't over fertilize for the light you have. A fan may help.

If you have tomato plants that aren't in the ground yet that are to spindly, bury them up to the leaves when you transplant them even if you have to lay them sideways to do so. I've buried pepper plants deeper than they grew. I never dug them back up to see if they grew roods from the stem but the didn't die and the deeper burying at least kept them from being broken.

doug thanks for your reply. i have nearly always done as per your suggestions but i hardly ever have anything but in my opinion spindly plants. i see pictures of some of the plants the members have it and it seems as if their stalks are more robust. i think it is something i am not providing for the soil that is the problem. thanks for taking the time to reply. jon

peppero · December 16, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottinAtlanta

When I dug up my pepper plants a few weeks ago and washed off the root ball, I found a few roots growing out the stem above the root ball. I had planted them deep, and they did indeed put a few roots out. Not many, but a few.

scott for many of my plants i too have noticied what you have described. i had some pepper plants that had tremendous root production and others in the same bed had a much smaller amount. some of them were adjacent to each other. beats me. jon

KarenO · December 16, 2012

Some varieties of tomatoes, particularily some heirloom varieties are naturally very wispy or droopy or soft stemmed and requiring much more support than other varieties which are naturally stronger/sturdier. This may be a factor, what varieties do you plant? Do you find the problem with all of your plants or some of them? Perhaps trying another variety or bush or determinate varieties instead of the taller and more unweildy indeterminates would help.
I agree with either deep or horizontal trench planting to provide a sturdy well rooted plant. even still, all indeterminate plants will require strong support in the form of stakes or large cages or even both.
Enjoy your gardening and happy holidays!
KO

kilroyscarnival · December 16, 2012

I tried something I had seen online, starting seeds in a tall cup with only a small amount, maybe 2" of soil. As the seedling grows, fast at first, I start adding more soil around the plant up to just below the cotyledon leaves. I found adding dried out soil mix worked best either using my fingers like sand art or a plastic spoon. Then I would moisten the soil. The tomato should start putting out roots all along the buried stem. I didn't do any the regular way to compare, but I only messed up two seedlings by not being careful enough before I got the knack of it. I am also burying them deep when transplanting. With peppers, not sure. I didn't do the same with them.

ddsack · December 17, 2012

The main cause of thin stringy stalks vs robust ones in the garden, is lack of enough hours of sunlight. My back garden which is surrounded by tall trees, gets fewer hours of full sunlight. In the early summer it gets 7-9 hours, but by fall, parts of it only get 4-5 hours due to the lower sun angle in the north. Many of the shadier garden tomatoes are taller, but more spindly than the same varieties in my front sunny garden. For seedlings, the same is true - I get mine out from under fluorescent lights as soon as I can into natural sunlight, even if I have to bring them in at night. And I use an oscillating fan on them while they are still in the house. Makes a big difference in thicker stems.

TightenUp · December 17, 2012

if you are talking about spindly stems during the first month or so of seed starting just keep the fluoro lights nice and close(like 1 or 2 inches away). at this stage you want higher kelvin lights which look almost blueish. also get a small desk fan. the addition of a small fan mimics wind and the plant slowly strengthens itself to void being knocked over.

what as far as lights and medium are you using for seed starting?

peppero · December 17, 2012

i appreciate all of you taking to time to offer suggestions. i am not a novice by any means(30+ years) and i definitely do not know everything but i have tried every suggestion offered here and have tried over 200 varities of tomatoes. i have most variations in terms of sunlight availability and duration and have a consistant result. the commonality among the results suggests to me that it is a soil condition. the one variety that produced thicker stalks was celebrity but the stalks were not outstanding. another thing that causes me to think it is something missing in the soil is that some years ago they were more robust plants. i have great soil that is deep and has a lot of organic material in it. i also plan to have a soil test to see if that will reveal something. thanks again for your responses. jon

BigBrownDogHouse · December 17, 2012

This was a shot of one of the monster stalks I had on the side of the house. Not sure how it got so big

, I specialize in overcrowding.

dice · December 18, 2012

Probably potassium, or a relatively high nitrogen to potassium
ratio. You should check soil pH. As pH drops, potassium leaches
out of the root zone faster. High levels of magnesium can block
potassium absorption by the plant, too.

A soil test should tell you a lot.

Some potassium sources:
wood ash (raises pH)
sul-po-mag (K-mag is a brand name)
potassium sulfate

A chart of "nutrients in excess" and what they would reduce
plant uptake of:
http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm

Soil pH and nutrient availability:
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/acid2.html

peppero · December 18, 2012

thanks dice for the references. i have read and downloaded for further reference. jon

Redbaron · December 18, 2012

Peppero,
Dice is right about the need of a soil test to be sure.

There is however a possible companion planting technique that may help.

Certain plants like carrots can aid tomatoes by simply having long deep tap roots. Ironically Tomatoes will stunt the carrots though. So this is a rare and little known companion plant for tomatoes. Most veggie companion plants are mutually beneficial, and one sided companions like carrots and tomatoes are seldom used together. This is also the problem with Rosemary. Rosemary grows great with tomatoes, they are mutually beneficial, and tomatoes planted with Rosemary are better able to absorb minerals the rosemary pulls from very deep. Some people even claim Rosemary makes the tomatoes taste better! The problem is that the primary companion to tomatoes is basil. Basil and rosemary fight and mutually stunt each other. So it is a dilemma. If you use rosemary as a companion to tomatoes you can't use basil. And basil is scientifically proven to increase tomato yields 20% or more.

Another possible one is purslane, which makes a nice living mulch and ground cover too. (tastes good too) I haven't personally tried purslane with tomatoes, but it is proven to promote stronger stalks and deeper roots with corn. And that I can personally attest works. I can also personally attest to the fact purslane helps peppers, but in peppers case I always assumed it was the micro climate benefit.

The books say dandelions also work with tomatoes for the same reason, (deep tap roots that facilitate tomatoes getting the trace minerals they need) . But that is another one I haven't tried. I guess I still can't help but think of dandelions as a weed!

And of course marigolds should always be planted with tomatoes no matter what other things you may try. I like the French dwarfs for this.

I know companion planting is somewhat confusing for most gardeners. It does take careful observation and years of experience because subtle variations can occur depending on your native soil, climate, typical pests, etc.... But once you get the knack of the technique, you probably won't want to ever plant mono crop rows ever again.

In summary you can try a little experiment next year if you like, just to see if it works at helping the problem.

Companion plant marigolds with all your tomatoes. Always do this.

Then on 1/2 of them try rosemary (and either purslane, or carrots optional). On the other 1/2 of them companion plant basil (and either purslane or carrots optional).

Peppers I do slightly different. They are a nightshade so anything that works for tomatoes can possibly work for peppers too. But unlike tomatoes, most peppers like a more humid micro climate. So they benefit even more from ground cover planted around them. I personally like to use cilantro, basil, marigolds purslane and even oregano. Be careful with oregano though. It can easily become a weed and try to take over your whole garden. Also peppers are shorter so any companions around them need trimmed so they don't shade them out. (I let some cilantro bolt and provide shade only because it has very lacy foliage when bolting)

PS OH and always keep brassicas (cabbage family) of any type well away from any tomatoes and peppers (or other nightshades)

Hope this all helps.

Cole_Robbie · December 27, 2012

I'm trying to think of why I've never seen companion planting used in commercial operations. Is it because the benefits are typically a reduction in insect pests, and a commercial farm will spray heavily anyway?

December 16, 2012	#1
peppero Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: selmer, tn Posts: 2,944	stronger stalks can anyone recommend what you can amend the soil with in order to get stronger, thicker stalks on tomato and pepper plants? i would appreciate any recommendations. jon

December 16, 2012	#6
KarenO Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 5,931	Some varieties of tomatoes, particularily some heirloom varieties are naturally very wispy or droopy or soft stemmed and requiring much more support than other varieties which are naturally stronger/sturdier. This may be a factor, what varieties do you plant? Do you find the problem with all of your plants or some of them? Perhaps trying another variety or bush or determinate varieties instead of the taller and more unweildy indeterminates would help. I agree with either deep or horizontal trench planting to provide a sturdy well rooted plant. even still, all indeterminate plants will require strong support in the form of stakes or large cages or even both. Enjoy your gardening and happy holidays! KO Last edited by KarenO; December 16, 2012 at 07:28 PM.

December 16, 2012	#7
kilroyscarnival Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 614	I tried something I had seen online, starting seeds in a tall cup with only a small amount, maybe 2" of soil. As the seedling grows, fast at first, I start adding more soil around the plant up to just below the cotyledon leaves. I found adding dried out soil mix worked best either using my fingers like sand art or a plastic spoon. Then I would moisten the soil. The tomato should start putting out roots all along the buried stem. I didn't do any the regular way to compare, but I only messed up two seedlings by not being careful enough before I got the knack of it. I am also burying them deep when transplanting. With peppers, not sure. I didn't do the same with them. Last edited by kilroyscarnival; December 16, 2012 at 10:51 PM. Reason: Typo/auto finish

December 17, 2012	#8
ddsack Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Northern Minnesota - zone 3 Posts: 3,231	The main cause of thin stringy stalks vs robust ones in the garden, is lack of enough hours of sunlight. My back garden which is surrounded by tall trees, gets fewer hours of full sunlight. In the early summer it gets 7-9 hours, but by fall, parts of it only get 4-5 hours due to the lower sun angle in the north. Many of the shadier garden tomatoes are taller, but more spindly than the same varieties in my front sunny garden. For seedlings, the same is true - I get mine out from under fluorescent lights as soon as I can into natural sunlight, even if I have to bring them in at night. And I use an oscillating fan on them while they are still in the house. Makes a big difference in thicker stems. __________________ Dee **************

December 17, 2012	#9
TightenUp Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Jersey Posts: 1,183	if you are talking about spindly stems during the first month or so of seed starting just keep the fluoro lights nice and close(like 1 or 2 inches away). at this stage you want higher kelvin lights which look almost blueish. also get a small desk fan. the addition of a small fan mimics wind and the plant slowly strengthens itself to void being knocked over. what as far as lights and medium are you using for seed starting? __________________

December 16, 2012	#2
Doug9345 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Durhamville,NY Posts: 2,706	Are you talking about seedlings or plants in the ground. For seedlings more light, less temperature and don't over fertilize for the light you have. A fan may help. If you have tomato plants that aren't in the ground yet that are to spindly, bury them up to the leaves when you transplant them even if you have to lay them sideways to do so. I've buried pepper plants deeper than they grew. I never dug them back up to see if they grew roods from the stem but the didn't die and the deeper burying at least kept them from being broken.

December 16, 2012	#3
ScottinAtlanta Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 2,593	When I dug up my pepper plants a few weeks ago and washed off the root ball, I found a few roots growing out the stem above the root ball. I had planted them deep, and they did indeed put a few roots out. Not many, but a few.

December 18, 2012	#12
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	Probably potassium, or a relatively high nitrogen to potassium ratio. You should check soil pH. As pH drops, potassium leaches out of the root zone faster. High levels of magnesium can block potassium absorption by the plant, too. A soil test should tell you a lot. Some potassium sources: wood ash (raises pH) sul-po-mag (K-mag is a brand name) potassium sulfate A chart of "nutrients in excess" and what they would reduce plant uptake of: http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm Soil pH and nutrient availability: http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/acid2.html __________________ -- alias

December 18, 2012	#14
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	Peppero, Dice is right about the need of a soil test to be sure. There is however a possible companion planting technique that may help. Certain plants like carrots can aid tomatoes by simply having long deep tap roots. Ironically Tomatoes will stunt the carrots though. So this is a rare and little known companion plant for tomatoes. Most veggie companion plants are mutually beneficial, and one sided companions like carrots and tomatoes are seldom used together. This is also the problem with Rosemary. Rosemary grows great with tomatoes, they are mutually beneficial, and tomatoes planted with Rosemary are better able to absorb minerals the rosemary pulls from very deep. Some people even claim Rosemary makes the tomatoes taste better! The problem is that the primary companion to tomatoes is basil. Basil and rosemary fight and mutually stunt each other. So it is a dilemma. If you use rosemary as a companion to tomatoes you can't use basil. And basil is scientifically proven to increase tomato yields 20% or more. Another possible one is purslane, which makes a nice living mulch and ground cover too. (tastes good too) I haven't personally tried purslane with tomatoes, but it is proven to promote stronger stalks and deeper roots with corn. And that I can personally attest works. I can also personally attest to the fact purslane helps peppers, but in peppers case I always assumed it was the micro climate benefit. The books say dandelions also work with tomatoes for the same reason, (deep tap roots that facilitate tomatoes getting the trace minerals they need) . But that is another one I haven't tried. I guess I still can't help but think of dandelions as a weed! And of course marigolds should always be planted with tomatoes no matter what other things you may try. I like the French dwarfs for this. I know companion planting is somewhat confusing for most gardeners. It does take careful observation and years of experience because subtle variations can occur depending on your native soil, climate, typical pests, etc.... But once you get the knack of the technique, you probably won't want to ever plant mono crop rows ever again. In summary you can try a little experiment next year if you like, just to see if it works at helping the problem. Companion plant marigolds with all your tomatoes. Always do this. Then on 1/2 of them try rosemary (and either purslane, or carrots optional). On the other 1/2 of them companion plant basil (and either purslane or carrots optional). Peppers I do slightly different. They are a nightshade so anything that works for tomatoes can possibly work for peppers too. But unlike tomatoes, most peppers like a more humid micro climate. So they benefit even more from ground cover planted around them. I personally like to use cilantro, basil, marigolds purslane and even oregano. Be careful with oregano though. It can easily become a weed and try to take over your whole garden. Also peppers are shorter so any companions around them need trimmed so they don't shade them out. (I let some cilantro bolt and provide shade only because it has very lacy foliage when bolting) PS OH and always keep brassicas (cabbage family) of any type well away from any tomatoes and peppers (or other nightshades) Hope this all helps. __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture Last edited by Redbaron; December 18, 2012 at 11:03 AM. Reason: peppers added

December 27, 2012	#15
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	I'm trying to think of why I've never seen companion planting used in commercial operations. Is it because the benefits are typically a reduction in insect pests, and a commercial farm will spray heavily anyway?