noire de crimee

[peppero]

has anyone grown noire de crimee or noire de charboneusse? please share your results. jon

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by peppero

has anyone grown noire de crimee or noire de charboneusse? please share your results. jon

Yes, I've grown both.

The seeds for Noire de Crimme were received from Norbert in France back in 1992 along with many other varieties. there were three of us he contacted and you can read about this variety at Tania's website. And the trade was a huge one and introduced many varieties to the U that have become very popular. Nope, no way I can make a list but when I pot a variety name Iknow it came from Norbert.

As I wrote in my book, Noire De Crimee and Black Krim should be the same, but they weren't for me where I was growing tomatoes at the time. I thought that the fruits of Noire were darker, production greater and taste better than with Black Krim. Just my experience.

Noire des Cosebeauf has perhaps some of the most beautiful fruits on a variety that I've seen,perfect scalopping on the shoulders, but the taste was far too aggressive for me to like and I only grewitone more time and is was the same.

Carolyn

[peppero]

thanks for replying carolyn. i was curious to know how it had turned for those who had grown it as i had my interest peaked after reading about it on tania's site. jon

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by peppero

thanks for replying carolyn. i was curious to know how it had turned for those who had grown it as i had my interest peaked after reading about it on tania's site. jon

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Noire_De_Crimee

Jon, the history at Tania's site is not quite right b'c we did get the Seeds from Norbert in France in 1992 and I probably listed it in the SSE YEarbook in 93 or 94 and also had a page for it in my book and both Glenn Drowns and Chuck Wyatt wanted seeds for all in my book that they didn't have so I sent them all those seeds as well. BillMinkey is a long time SSE member as I am and no doubt got it from my listing in a Yearbook. Right now I can 't remember which of us in that huge trade with Norbert got this or that variety, and I think Bill was as well, but not Glenn and not Chuck either. And I know Howard Essl very well, and Chuck would not have gotten it from Howard.

Above you asked about ND as well as Noire des Cosebeauf so I'm assuming it was mainly the ND that you were most interfested in. I think ND is a good one but if truth be told I'm not a great fan of most so called blacks.

Carolyn

[Tania]

Carolyn,

I have been checking SSE Yearbooks from 1998 to 2003, and cannot find your listings of Noire de Crimee. Chuck's listing seems to be the first, and Bill Minkey got it from Chuck.

I can't find anything in the earlier Yearbooks.

There is some confusion in the Yearbooks about the name some listings are under Noir de Crimee and some are under Noire de Crimee.

I will triple-check the Yearbooks again in the morning, in case my brain is playing tricks on me, it is quite late now...

[Tania]

1998 Yearbook:

Noir De Crimee: MD WY C - HAS - 75 days, med. size
dark red (nearly black) fruit, similar to Black Krim, from MD ES H 97.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Tania

1998 Yearbook:

Tania, I'm trying to remember the circumstances.

What's clear is that the variety was sent by Norbert from France in 1992, what's also clear is those who were in on that huge trade were Joe Bratka, who sent all his varieties to me, Bill Minkey and Craig LeHoullier, and myself.

Also clear is that Chuck was not and as I said above he had serious health problems for a few years before he passed on in 2002 and his memory was awful , that I also know from first hand experience.

And Howard Essl I knew well also and he was not part of the trade and yes, Chuck knew him.

As I also said above both Chuck and Glenn Drowns asked me for seeds for all in my book that they didn 't already have, and I sent them.

I had grown NDC a few years before 1998, probably as far back as 93, 94 ( see my update below) and many varieties in my book were grown for photography in the summer of 1998 but many were grown in years previous to that and the seeds, then, were a few years old but still good, and that included quite a few varieties that were received from Norbert in 1992.

Bill Minkey and I got the most varieties from Norbert and we exchanged quite a few between us and as I said above.It just occurred to me to look at the appendix in my book andthat indicated that indeed I did receive NDC from Norbert and that confirms for me that I did get it from him, probably did share seeds with Chuck and Bill and Glenn as I mentioned above.

But I never personally SSE listed it, and now I'm remembering why. NDC should be the same as Black Krim but I found differences as noted in my book. But I personally didn't feel comfortable SSE listing it b/c the names were formally identical.

I had the same problem with the Yellow Brandywine that Gary Platfoot of OH sent me but the differences from the YB that I had been growing were really strong, so I ended up calling it Yellow Brandywine (Platfoot) and I remember talking with Linda Sapp at TGS about it and she said for me to send it for trial along with all the many others I sent one year and decided it was different enough for her to list it, and she did.

Summary? Chuck was wrong in saying he got it from Howard and I've told you why above. Heck, when he was out of some varieties he'd have Donna ( who did most of the seed packing) send something back to folks that was the same color and size and laughed about it, I didn't. He mixed up seeds horribly and I also remember when I was doing those wrong varieties threads at GW all those years ago the long lists of goofs from his seeds, the lady from GA whose name escapes me now was one of them, she still has a website last I knew, listed lots of wrong ones from Chuck.

Chuck never got it from Howard who was an interesting man and Craig L might even remember that Howard was obsessed with finding the bronze foliage on the variety Abraham Lincoln that was part of the original description. Howard insisted that one morning he thought he saw that bronze foliage glinting in the sun, but never saw it again, and that with one of the many strains he did grow, No one has seen that bronze foliage in modern times as far as I know.

Carolyn, who notes for the record that there are quite a few SSE blurbs with wrong information which shouldn't surprise you. Craig L joined in 1988, me in 1989 and then Bill M and Neil L a few years later and I don't remember when Chuck joined. All my yearbooks back to 1975 are here on the floor to my left and by now when I look for specific ones the piles start crashing into each other. Craig and I had offered to try and get as much wrong info out of the tomato section as we could and that's why both of us were sent those older yearbooks. But it never happened.The only one they were out of was the 1982 one which had Glenn Drowns on the cover.

[saltmarsh]

Sometimes I wish there was a website somewhere on the internet with members knowledgeable about tomatoes. Happy New Year Tania and Carolyn.

[Tania]

Aha, that would make more sense - thank you Carolyn!

I fixed the page.

[aclum]

Hi Carolyn,

I've got a packet of Noir de Crimee from Heirloom Tomatoes dated 2003. What would you guess the odds are that they (and my other Heirloom Tomato seeds from that date) are actually what they claim do be?

Thanks!
Anne

[aclum]

Tania and/or Carolyn (or anyone else who might be able to help me),

My mystery PL "Noir De Crimee" has set fruit and I was wondering if at this early stage, anyone might hazard a guess as to what it might be - given a few clues.

As I mentioned, seeds are from Heirmloom Tomatoes and dated 2003. The seed came from the Noir de Crimee packet. I have a RL Noir de Crimee growing next to it in the garden and the plants are about the same size.

The big clue is that the fruit appears to be a plum shape and I don't believe I have any plums in my collection of seeds.

I couldn't find a identification filter on tatianastomatobase that included more than one characteristic at a time (leaftype, shape, color, etc). I'm assuming I've got a stray seed from Heirloom Tomatoes, so I was trying to find a potato leaf plum tomato available from Heirloom Tomatoes in 2003. Is there anything you know that would fit that bill?

I'm attaching a couple of photos. One a close-up of the fruit and another of the whole plant.

Thanks,
Anne

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by aclum

Tania and/or Carolyn (or anyone else who might be able to help me),

My mystery PL "Noir De Crimee" has set fruit and I was wondering if at this early stage, anyone might hazard a guess as to what it might be - given a few clues.

As I mentioned, seeds are from Heirmloom Tomatoes and dated 2003. The seed came from the Noir de Crimee packet. I have a RL Noir de Crimee growing next to it in the garden and the plants are about the same size.

The big clue is that the fruit appears to be a plum shape and I don't believe I have any plums in my collection of seeds.

I couldn't find a identification filter on tatianastomatobase that included more than one characteristic at a time (leaftype, shape, color, etc). I'm assuming I've got a stray seed from Heirloom Tomatoes, so I was trying to find a potato leaf plum tomato available from Heirloom Tomatoes in 2003. Is there anything you know that would fit that bill?

I'm attaching a couple of photos. One a close-up of the fruit and another of the whole plant.

Thanks,
Anne

Anne, I haven't looked at Chucks sige in a long time, so I'll leave it up to you to see what you can see.

Stray seed possibly, but crossed seed is more probable to me considering the fact that Chuck passed on in June of 2002 and so he must have done the seed saving for that one, and as I said in a post above, he was not a well man at the time, very confusedd actuially.

I used to do a wrong varieties thread at GW as I also mentioned above and well I remember many folks getting wrong varieties from his site.

How many seeds did you germinate from that 2003 pack and how many were PL and how many were RL?

Carolyn

[aclum]

Hi Carolyn,

Thanks for the info! A while back I searched for the GW wrong variety thread, but couldn't find it.....

I checked out the heirloomtomatoes.com website and, unfortunately, they don't always list leaf type, etc. - or the date they stated listing it. I think I might have better luck slogging through tatianas listings.

I don't recall how many seeds I started, but I'm guessing just 2 or 3. I hadn't planned to grow them, but after reading this thread when it started, I decided to start a couple on a whim to compare to the black krim I was growing. I'm thinking I probably had 2 seedlings, one for a control and one for grafting, but when I saw the different leaftypes, just decided to go with what I had and forget about trying a graft. I just checked and I have 42 seeds left.

I'm actually sort of excited at the prospect of having an accidental cross! Hope it tastes halfway decent (will find out before too long)! If it's a keeper, I may start a few more seed to check on leaftype percentages, variations, etc.

Anne

[dice]

The RL might be the real thing. Expect baseball sized dark fruit,
good flavor, looks like a smaller Black Krim. The PL could be anything
(stray seed, a saved seed from a chance F1, etc). If you save seeds
from fruit of the PL one and grow multiple saved seeds out, if they
are all the same plant, it was a stray seed of a stable OP. If there are
plant-to-plant differences, it was probably a bee-made cross a couple
of generations back (the one thing it is not is an F1 cross with a
Noir de Crimee plant, else the leaf type would still be RL).

[aclum]

Hi Dice,

Thanks for the info. I guess I'll try to save seeds on this one! I'm pretty positive that it's not a stray seed as Tatiana lists only 2 varieties that are both potato leaf and plum shape. One is Wild Boar's Evan's Purple Plum (or Pear) and the other is Babywine. I've never ordered anything from Wild Boar Farms, and I don't think Heirloom Tomatoes carried Babywine (plus the shape doesn't look quite right). I don't save or trade seeds, so I guess, as Carolyn suggested, it was an cross from Chuck Wyatt, but as you suggest, not with a Noir de Crimee parent. Hum....

Should be interesting growing out seeds! I may start more of my orginal noir de crimee and see if I get any more PL plants.

Anne