treated seeds

[TightenUp]

does anyone use treated tomato seeds? i assume the ones i have are treated with thiram. they are reddish looking

[ContainerTed]

I've used them before. Got a bunch from a vendor. Had no problems with any of them.

[greyghost]

Jeff, I've used them many times, too. Especially hybrid seeds sold by
such vendors as Harris Seeds. I prefer to purchase treated bean, zuchinni,
corn and cucumber seeds especially when planting early in cooler soil.
Darlene

[TightenUp]

Ted and Darlene

Thanks. i figured there wouldnt be any issues. was really just surprised to see seeds that were red.

i'll give them a shot as i really dont want to place any more seed orders as i've got quite the seed library forming. these are my big beef seeds and i def want them in the garden this year

Thanks again

[kurt]

I love them and look/buy them when availiable.Decreases the risk of any seed born disease transmission.Increases germ rates.

[carolyn137]

Red coated seeds are coated with Capstan and green coated seeds are coated with Thiram and both are anti-fungals that help the seeds survive in cold wet soils so they don't rot following fungal attack in the soil.

So as Darlene said above, good for outside early sowing of especially seeds that want warm soils to germinate well.

Carolyn

[Redbaron]

I don't want to rain on peoples parade here. But if you use a fungicide on your seeds, it will reduce the effectiveness of any beneficial fungal treatments you may use for disease and/or insect control.

The two methods are not very compatible. Just be aware of that. I am not saying you shouldn't use the seeds. Just understand what you are doing. For every disease causing fungus there are 10 beneficial fungi. It is just seeds. So the downside is far less than spraying a whole field with fungicide. However, it is still a fungicide and can locally disrupt the balance causing unexpected results sometimes.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

I don't want to rain on peoples parade here. But if you use a fungicide on your seeds, it will reduce the effectiveness of any beneficial fungal treatments you may use for disease and/or insect control.

The two methods are not very compatible. Just be aware of that. I am not saying you shouldn't use the seeds. Just understand what you are doing. For every disease causing fungus there are 10 beneficial fungi. It is just seeds. So the downside is far less than spraying a whole field with fungicide. However, it is still a fungicide and can locally disrupt the balance causing unexpected results sometimes.

First, I didn't see anyone specifying that either Capstan or Thiram were antifungals so that's why I posted As I see it, it's the saprophytic non pathogenic fungi that are most important in seed rotting.

It would seem to me that there's a big difference between systemic diseases that are soilborne and infect via the roots, v's saprophytic fungi which are mostly beneficial, so it's said, but I wouldn't put a number on it as you did.

And the reason for that is that there's little to no correlation when testing soil samples for live fungi and then doing visual counts on stained samples of the same samples used for live counts.

It's been estimated that we only know about 80% of the soil fungal flora, so who knows what really is or is not beneficial? No one does in that regard althoughI could put up some links here with the names of many of the known ones, but then anyone here can do that via Google. And to the point, I'm still struggling with this credit card fraud issue and need to get back to the LR for that.

Yes, I used to teach Environmental Microbiology.

Penetration of a seed coat is not exactly the same as penetration of live root surfaces.

I admit that your concern may be valid for some folks, though.

Carolyn

[Redbaron]

I wasn't directing my comments at you Carolyn. Nothing personal. But some people pay a pretty good price for biological soil treatments and pest control. Others maybe don't pay for products, but put a lot of effort into developing them in other ways like compost etc...

A lot of biological beneficials are resistant enough not to be bothered by the small amount present on a seed coat. Not a lot will leach far from the seeds. But it is an issue for people that spend money treating seeds or plants with biological controls. They are not very compatible in many cases.

Think of it this way.

Let's say I just spent 100 dollars on entomopathogenic fungi like Beauveria bassiana or even more developing an integrated pest management (IPM) program using several biologicals. Then I am fighting against myself if I ruin the whole balance by using fungicides. I am wasting my money!

That's just one example. There are other fungi that help in nutrient uptake by making bioavailable important nutrients. If you garden organically this is extremely important to make sure you don't disrupt. Because if you disrupt this, yet don't fertilise chemically, you end up with the worst of both!

If you use conventional methods, sure treated seed is great! But if you grow organically it can have unexpected negative side effects. I mean who would expect a fungicide as the cause of a thrip or white fly outbreak? Yet that precise thing can and does happen all the time. That's all I am saying.

[kurt]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

I wasn't directing my comments at you Carolyn. Nothing personal. But some people pay a pretty good price for biological soil treatments and pest control. Others maybe don't pay for products, but put a lot of effort into developing them in other ways like compost etc...

A lot of biological beneficials are resistant enough not to be bothered by the small amount present on a seed coat. Not a lot will leach far from the seeds. But it is an issue for people that spend money treating seeds or plants with biological controls. They are not very compatible in many cases.

Think of it this way.

Let's say I just spent 100 dollars on entomopathogenic fungi like Beauveria bassiana or even more developing an integrated pest management (IPM) program using several biologicals. Then I am fighting against myself if I ruin the whole balance by using fungicides. I am wasting my money!

That's just one example. There are other fungi that help in nutrient uptake by making bioavailable important nutrients. If you garden organically this is extremely important to make sure you don't disrupt. Because if you disrupt this, yet don't fertilise chemically, you end up with the worst of both!

If you use conventional methods, sure treated seed is great! But if you grow organically it can have unexpected negative side effects. I mean who would expect a fungicide as the cause of a thrip or white fly outbreak? Yet that precise thing can and does happen all the time. That's all I am saying.

This outfit has the organic certifications for all that are worried about toxins in the enviornment.FYI http://seeddynamics.com/seedtechnology/whytreatseeds

[bower]

The results of studies on this are very mixed - different kinds of treatments, on different crops, with different fungicides, have different results! I found some other folks had reviewed the literature and made a report and tabled it, linked below - the good news is, seed treatments are apparently minimal enough have little or no effect on beneficial fungi.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...YWGI_d4m5r3Azw

[TightenUp]

Originally Posted by bower

The results of studies on this are very mixed - different kinds of treatments, on different crops, with different fungicides, have different results! I found some other folks had reviewed the literature and made a report and tabled it, linked below - the good news is, seed treatments are apparently minimal enough have little or no effect on beneficial fungi.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...YWGI_d4m5r3Azw

if this is true i am happy. aside from this packet of treated seed i will be growing organically. i'm still considering just buying some non treated seeds and offering my pack of treated big beef seeds in a general seed offer.

[Doug9345]

Tighten Up how many big beef seeds do you need. I have some that I bought from Nichols last year. I could send you some or we could trade for something if you want. I'm working on increasing the number of tomato varieties I have to try.

Edited to add. I don't believe they are treated as they have no color, but they aren't organically grow as far as I know.

[TightenUp]

Doug, first off thanks for the offer. much appreciated! i would need about 8-10 seeds to get the job done for this season. big beef is one of the only varieties i plan to grow multiple plants in all 3 gardens i tend to.

check out my grow list thread to see most of my varieties. i have about 20 more that im not growing this year. here is the thread, let me know if you'd like to trade. if you're not interested in any of these let me know and i'll send you the names of the unlisted varieties.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=25746

if your uninterested have no worries. big beef is an easy variety to get my hands on but if you like any of my varieties i will gladly make a trade. thanks again

[bower]

Originally Posted by TightenUp

if this is true i am happy. aside from this packet of treated seed i will be growing organically. i'm still considering just buying some non treated seeds and offering my pack of treated big beef seeds in a general seed offer.

I have never used them either, although I have received some treated seed by mistake a few times. I got some peas once that were rolling in loose powder, I wouldn't even open the bag!

One way to ensure a good mycorrhizal association for your tomatoes is to plant some early carrots and cilantro around them - these two are obligate mycorrhizal so can't grow without a good soil community, and they will inoculate the young tomato plants.