starting seedling without lights

[Ms. Jitomate]

I am in Pasadena, California. If I start tomato seedlings now, do I really need to put them under lights? Right now in January, our highs are in the 60's and our lows are in the 40's and we are averaging rain about once or twice a week, so we have lots of sunny days. This will be my first attempt at tomatoes. I did start sweet and hot peppers indoors last year with great success. My last frost date is Feb. 21.

[LBchilehead]

Start them indoors when the first leaves come out. Tomatoes need both heat and light. You have to put them under lights, if not your risking your future production. Winter sun is not strong enough for these seed babies. Keep them under the light about 6 in away from the light for 8 weeks. Then place black tarp over growing space to warm up soil and keep them in a covered with a milk jug that is cut from the bottom. Bury plant first then cover it with the milk jug.

[habitat_gardener]

If you can start peppers without lights, then you can grow tomatoes without lights.

The seed catalog from Johnny's has graphs of optimal germination temperatures for most vegetables. For tomatoes, germination peaks at 86F, but is still pretty high from about 68F to 95F, and is lower at 41-68F. For peppers, germination also peaks at 86F, but the range is much smaller (68-95F).

I've started tomatoes and peppers in cold frames. (also started peppers with the paper towel method) Germination is slower and weaker without bottom heat, though. I'm in northern Calif. (bay area south of SF) and need to protect my tomatoes until mid-May.

I've tried several types of cold frames. Translucent plastic bins didn't hold enough heat, so germination was glacially slow. Wire cylinders laid vertically, covered with bubble wrap, and surrounded by gallon water bottles (to hold heat and block wind) worked very well. It's crucial to be able to vent the cold frame as needed. Some seedlings last spring fried because I didn't get to them in time one morning! I grew them in translucent bins surrounded by a box made out of rigid insulation (foam sheets), with a cover made from plexiglas. The plexiglas works well to keep out the rainstorms, but it's not as easy to vent as the bubble wrap. Of course, you could also get a commercial cold frame with an automatic vent!

[GnomeGrown]

The Johnny's catalog is a wonderful reference for seed starting.

[Tracydr]

Originally Posted by Ms. Jitomate

I am in Pasadena, California. If I start tomato seedlings now, do I really need to put them under lights? Right now in January, our highs are in the 60's and our lows are in the 40's and we are averaging rain about once or twice a week, so we have lots of sunny days. This will be my first attempt at tomatoes. I did start sweet and hot peppers indoors last year with great success. My last frost date is Feb. 21.

I take my seedlings in and out once they get repotted to harden them off and get them growing better. You can do it right from the start which I used to do.. It's a pain but with those temps you can do it. The only reason I got lights is that I couldn't get seedlings started in the heat of the summer here in Phoenix. My winter temps I did okay with bringing them in and out and you should be fine, too.
I take my flats out and put them in a protected area of my concrete porch where it stays much warmer then the rest of the yard. I guess it's sort of a cold frame without a top.
A cold frame would be great, so long as it doesn't get too hot but I would just germinate them indoors and then haul them in and out if it were me.

[Ms. Jitomate]

Ok, I started the seeds indoors in front of my south-facing window on a heating mat. After 4 days I see them emerging!

I ordered the Johnny's catalog since their website was not very helpful. This forum has been very helpful but searching and putting together notes does take some time.

LBchilehead, how long does the black tarp/plastic need to be on the ground to warm up the soil? I plan to transplant in late February.

I still want to do this without lights, but what would be the signs that my seedlings are stressed due to lack of artificial lights?

Last year when I did the peppers, I started hardening off in mid-March. I have no records of when I started those seeds. My journal-keeping started last year in mid-March. Darn.

[LBchilehead]

I am in Los Angeles, I like to place my tarp about two or three weeks before I would like to plant. I get the ground ready with tilling and fertilizing with organic methods first. I place some heavy duty contractor bags and hold the thing with rocks. The rocks also absorb the heat.

[rockhound]

Too low light level will cause spindly plants, way too tall- may even fall over.

[Hotwired]

The amount of light that your seedlings require is directly related to the temperature at which you are growing them. If you're inside in a window where average temperatures are 70F, then you need lots of light. I'm up North where outside temperatures are freezing, and my sun porch is maintained at 40F. Before I built my greenhouse this was my seed starting room. It was Southern facing, so I got about 4 hours of good sunlight per day on the plants. That was sufficient for 40F temperatures. They grow real slow at that temperature, but they also build really heavy stems and get root bound quickly http://imageshack.us/a/img690/8275/268ib.jpg .

Here's how I start my plants - http://www.hotwiredgardens.com/pdf/G...d_starting.pdf

[LBchilehead]

Originally Posted by Hotwired

The amount of light that your seedlings require is directly related to the temperature at which you are growing them. If you're inside in a window where average temperatures are 70F, then you need lots of light. I'm up North where outside temperatures are freezing, and my sun porch is maintained at 40F. Before I built my greenhouse this was my seed starting room. It was Southern facing, so I got about 4 hours of good sunlight per day on the plants. That was sufficient for 40F temperatures. They grow real slow at that temperature, but they also build really heavy stems and get root bound quickly http://imageshack.us/a/img690/8275/268ib.jpg .

Here's how I start my plants - http://www.hotwiredgardens.com/pdf/G...d_starting.pdf

I checked out this pdf. It's great! When I buy some land I going to design my house especially for gardening and hobby farming. I am not even looking to make any money on it. I can't wait to start to design modern homestead like you have it.

[Ms. Jitomate]

Hotwired, your minimum and maximum temperatures that you try to maintain in your greenhouse are the minimum and maximum temperatures here in Pasadena, CA in January-- except after a rain when temperatures can drop 2 to 4 degrees F. Currently, sunrise is at 7 AM and sunset is at 5 PM, so I get 10 hours of sunlight in the middle of my back yard. Your ‘Jury-Rigger’s Guide’ suggest 8 more hours of light? In March, when many Californians plant we are barely getting 11.5 hours of sunlight. I don’t understand why I would need 18 hours.

You use tray warmers and humidity domes to begin germination only, right? After they germinate you remove them?

I like your fool-proof hardening set up with the Home Depot clear plastic. If you are not moving you future transplants to a sunny area for an hour or two back and forth, how long do they stay in this fool-proof method, 24/7 until transplant or after a shorter time period?

By the way, your set up is magnificent. I just want 16 healthy different heirloom plants for my first time starting from seeds. I’ll be referring to your Guide as these seedlings continue to grow. Your suggestions and info is greatly appreciated.

[Hotwired]

Ms. Jitomate wrote: I don’t understand why I would need 18 hours. Eighteen hours of light is not necessary. I do run lights enough to make up an 18-hour day, but it is not necessary. I run CFL's and 6500k fluorescent bulbs, and also have 4 metal halide lamps that I installed. I stopped using the metal halides after I got a $900 monthly gas & electric bill. I probably should modify the PDF so I'm not confusing apples and oranges. I light for 18 hours because I want to speed up growth. In the past, when I started seeds early enough, I didn't add any additional lighting to the direct sunlight of winter.

Ms. Jitomate wrote: How long do they stay in this fool-proof hardening method? I leave them for a minimum of 5 days. I setup a hardening hoophouse because of the quantity of plants that I need to harden http://imageshack.us/a/img842/1226/276qn.jpg . My plants stay there until I'm ready to plant of distribute them. I had to get creative because moving 2000 plants back and forth each day is not an option.

Ms. Jitomate wrote: You use tray warmers and humidity domes to begin germination only, right? After they germinate you remove them? I have several electric blankets. I germinate at 78F to 80F with the domes on. Once the seedlings are up 2" high I remove the domes so air can start circulating. This is a critical stage where damping off can be a big problem. I leave them on the 78F blanket for about 3 more days until they get their true leaves, and then move them to a 60F blanket for a week until I'm ready to transplant from multi-cell trays to pots. At this point they are hardy enough to withstand 40F lows.

[Sun City Linda]

Like Tracy, I have started and grown seedlings without light by moving them in an out into the sun.

[Ms. Jitomate]

Thank you Hotwired for your explanations.

I started my seedlings on 1/2/13 and all was going well, because we had some very sunny days in the 70's, until today when it started raining -- no sun! So I quickly set up some lights because these seedlings are at least 1 inch. This is what I quickly set up:

Tomato seedlings 1-10-13.jpg

I don't know if this is going to be enough but maybe for this one rainy day it will have to do. The seedlings are about one inch, measuring from the 'soil' to the cotelydon. I did see a twelve inch florescent light yesterday at a local hardware store but it needed 8 batteries and it didn't say how many watts. I didn't think it was worth buying it.

Another thing, I just need one plant from each type of tomato but it looks like I may have gotten 8o% germination as of today, 1/10/13.

[tqn626]

Originally Posted by Ms. Jitomate

Thank you Hotwired for your explanations.

I started my seedlings on 1/2/13

I'm so jealous, I bought a ton of seeds a week ago and they still haven't arrived.

An inexpensive way to have a grow light is to use the outlet to light bulb adapter ($2 Home Depot), Extension cord ($1 dollar, any dollar store), Light bulb (Depends on bulb), and some wired coat hangers (or anything else you can use) to make a stand. That what i did.

We should trade tomato varieties once I get mines growing.

Adapter
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...1#.UO-3m3fkoXg