Fertilizing tomatoes and peppers

[ScottinAtlanta]

Folks, I have been reading post after post about fertilizing a garden on this Forum, and have ended up without a clear idea of what the general consensus is on what kind of fertilizers to use on tomatoes and peppers over the season.

I have been using Tomato Tone as a top dressing about once every three weeks, but Tomato Tone has few fans here.

If I can summarize what I read, it seems that a general 10-10-10 is a good all purpose approach, but that a heavier Nitrogen mix early in the season is better.

If I have a good compost in the beds, do I need to fertilize at all?

Is this an area without a clear good practice? If so, so be it! I would love to see a sticky on fertilizing, though.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by ScottinAtlanta

Folks, I have been reading post after post about fertilizing a garden on this Forum, and have ended up without a clear idea of what the general consensus is on what kind of fertilizers to use on tomatoes and peppers over the season.

I have been using Tomato Tone as a top dressing about once every three weeks, but Tomato Tone has few fans here.

If I can summarize what I read, it seems that a general 10-10-10 is a good all purpose approach, but that a heavier Nitrogen mix early in the season is better.

If I have a good compost in the beds, do I need to fertilize at all?

Is this an area without a clear good practice? If so, so be it! I would love to see a sticky on fertilizing, though.

Compost is magic.

I like tomato tone. But I don't usually use it except early in spring at transplant time. Mainly for the inoculants. After that manure compost and mulches are what I focus on.

You won't get a consensus on fertilizers because even the science of it is in conflict. There are many arguments between organic advocates like myself and conventional advocates. The two ways of looking at soil are fundamentally different. Both can work, don't get me wrong. I have chosen what I firmly believe is far superior. But I do acknowledge that people have had success using a more conventional approach.

In the end it is up to you. Focus on NPK or focus on the carbon cycle.

[Doug9345]

If I have good compost in the beds, do I need to fertilize at all?

My feeling is, no, you shouldn't have to. Even if you separate the organic and non organic I don't think you are going to get a consensus on fertilizing. I believe there are too many variables with your starting point to give one recommendation. For example I can get by with little or no fertilizer because the land I'm using for a garden hasn't been anything but a weed field and before that a pasture. It's clay underneath and tends to hold water. If you go a couple of hundred yards east on my road I'd have to do more ammending and fertilizing because it's had years of corn on it.

[Redbaron]

That's exactly right Doug!

[habitat_gardener]

Some people advocate compost, others advocate fertilizer, and then there's Steve Solomon and the remineralizers. I've just read his new book, The Intelligent Gardener, where he argues against both and argues for
(a) a specific soil test for $20 and then a detailed analysis to come up with the right mix of amendments that will improve your soil,
or (b) for small gardens, his recipe for a complete organic fertilizer, based on using seedmeals such as cottonseed.

He does use compost -- a quarter-inch thick, or twice that if it's not finished -- but argues that it doesn't provide all the nutrients plants need.

He doesn't talk a lot about commercial fertilizers, but in general he says they don't have the right balance of ingredients to improve the soil, and may even move it in the wrong direction. For instance, the cheapest potassium source is KCl (so it's used in many ferts as the K source), but when it's added to soil, it leaches calcium out of the soil. And the whole concept is based on attaining Albrecht's cation balance in soils of 68% Ca, 12% Mg, where most soils need more available Ca.

I've been using only compost, plus alfalfa meal in the hole when planting, and occasional spritzes or soil drenches with diluted kelp or comfrey tea or nettle tea. The alfalfa meal made a huge difference the past few years -- I suddenly was able to grow much larger tomatoes, and I had great harvests in years when everyone around me was complaining about bad tomato years and cold summers. If I can manage to add one more thing to all the other stuff I'm juggling, I may try the soil test or the COF this year.

[ScottinAtlanta]

All great posts. Food for thought.

I am going to try alfalfa pellets this year - two 50 pound bags tilled under in 375 square feet of garden beds. I will drench a few times during the season with Neptune's Harvest. Hoping that - aside from the alternate weekly Daconil - Actinovate - spraying -- that is I need to do.

[Father'sDaughter]

Originally Posted by habitat_gardener

(a) a specific soil test for $20 and then a detailed analysis to come up with the right mix of amendments that will improve your soil

That, right there, is the key in my opinion--what my soil needs is not necessarily what anyone else's soil needs, so a blanket recommendation won't work for all gardens. My beds are still relatively new, having been built and filled with an excellent garden compost from a local nursery, and so far I haven't had to add much to them to get a good harvest. The time will come when I will have to start amending, and a soil test will tell me what they are hungry for!

[Redbaron]

You guys are spot on, but for me that's where companion planting comes in. Lots of plants have the ability to reach deep in the subsoil and pull up those other nutrients to balance the soil. If I have been composting and/or mulching properly, then all that carbon in the O and A layers of the topsoil will lock those other nutrients in, and release them slowly for the more shallow rooted plants.

So I concentrate on the top down, and let the companion plants, worms etc....work from the bottom up.

I can't say it is the only way. I would never tell someone NOT to get a soil test. I don't soil test though, and it works for me.

PS I may not soil test anymore, but I do pay very close attention to the soil. So for someone who isn't sure what to do, a soil test can be a good thing. Years ago I did soil test, and paid very close attention to both the soil and the tests to get an idea what was going on. Now I play it by ear.

[Urbanfarmer]

The fastest way to start an argument is to fill a room with gardeners and bring up fertilizers. Watch the fur fly.

Soil gardening is different than hydroponic gardening because there are some nutrients in soil, and other things going on as well. But the truth is.....most soils are woefully low on nutrients. Just ask the farmers of America: there are few successful farmers, organic or otherwise, that don't add significant amounts of fertilizers to their fields. People who make a living as professional growers know this.

In my experience, most backyard gardeners don't realize how much food tomato plants need to maximize production. A lot. Therefore, most amateur tomato gardeners under-fertilizer their plants. But sometimes it's the opposite.

One of the worst things you can do is haphazardly throw stuff in your garden plot, thinking it's all good. To give an example: a garden center customer of ours was having some problems in their demo garden. I looked at it and had a suspicion, so I asked what they had added. Over the last few years they had added rabbit, chicken, and cow manures, alfalfa meal, bone meal, tons of compost, and other things as well. They had rich, dark , nice-looking soil.

I sent a soil sample off to the lab and my suspicion was correct: they were what I call "upside down". The report came back.....over-dosed on everything except a severe nitrogen deficiency. They had just about poisoned their plot. It's not so bad when you are over on the macros, but when you reach toxic levels on the micros you have a problem getting rid of them because they don't leach well. In this particular instance, boron was off the charts.

They literally couldn't add anything else to their soil except nitrogen, which they did in the form of a mild urea solution. This turned their garden around.

The moral of the story? Anything can be overdone, and that includes organic fertilizers. You can most certainly poison a plot of land with organics. Like most things in life, moderation is the key. Don't go crazy.

To your point. To optimize, you should start with a soil analysis to tell you where you stand. In general, tomatoes want less N as fruiting begins, and increasing amounts of calcium, magnesium, and potassium. You can get away with more N early on. The fastest way to get this kind of nutrition to your plants and see a result is with soluble, well-formulated nutrients.

[Gavriil]

Originally Posted by ScottinAtlanta

Folks, I have been reading post after post about fertilizing a garden on this Forum, and have ended up without a clear idea of what the general consensus is on what kind of fertilizers to use on tomatoes and peppers over the season.

I have been using Tomato Tone as a top dressing about once every three weeks, but Tomato Tone has few fans here.

If I can summarize what I read, it seems that a general 10-10-10 is a good all purpose approach, but that a heavier Nitrogen mix early in the season is better.

If I have a good compost in the beds, do I need to fertilize at all?

Is this an area without a clear good practice? If so, so be it! I would love to see a sticky on fertilizing, though.

Used to use this (10-10-10 grass fertilizer) pretty good stuff after it kicks in.
now days just use the bag walmart manure compost mix, but got a call from a friend who was offered some Cow farm manure might give it a try.
Don't know what to expect, I hope it don't stink up the neighborhood.

[bower]

It's an interesting subject - I always dig in some fresh compost and use a cup of bone meal mixed deep into the planting hole.... that's the easy part, planted, fed and done. I have some dry chicken manure this year, so may add some of that for extra nitrogen, as well as my kelp sushi.

But then when they start to fruit, I start to worry, should I be fertilizing? Did they need something? I sometimes do a top dressing of compost, or a bit of kelp tea, or fish emulsion/molasses, or something that's obviously needed ( lime for example, if moss shows up !). Mostly I just feel very torn about it (shouldn't feed? should feed?) and then figure they're doing okay, forget it.

I sometimes try to pry people's secrets from them.... they never want to tell, or admit if they are secretly feeding their plants all season long to pump out more and bigger tomatoes... and if so, what!!!! Finally heard about a product called "Sonic Bloom" last year. It's a liquid, high phosphorus and potassium of course. Don't know what it's made from... but it's the kind of low nitrogen thing you can use when crops are fruiting.

[Urbanfarmer]

I don't know about Sonic Bloom, but bloom formulas generally aren't what tomatoes want or need. Anything more than 50 ppms in solution is not only a waste, but it interferes with the uptake of more important elements.

The nitrogen content varies on two things: the stage of the season, and variety. Heirlooms can't tolerate as much N as high-performance greenhouse hybrids, for example. Just to give an idea of a reasonable NPK for fruiting, think 4-3-7. Or multiply that for an 8-6-14. These are ballpark numbers.

If you already have a bunch of certain elements in your soil, then you have to make adjustments. Many soils are naturally high in P, so if that were the case, you want to back off on that.

Soil analysis is a real handy tool. Makes for less guesswork. Otherwise you're throwing darts in the dark. I'm always amazed at how much money people will spend on gardening, but they never think about doing a soil analysis. They run $40-$80.

[Sun City Linda]

I imagine TomatoTone is still a fine product for those growing in the dirt. They made the formulation weaker several years ago and those of us who grow in containers have had a number of problems with it just not getting the job done. Although even some container growers still like it.

[b54red]

Originally Posted by Urbanfarmer

The fastest way to start an argument is to fill a room with gardeners and bring up fertilizers. Watch the fur fly.

Soil gardening is different than hydroponic gardening because there are some nutrients in soil, and other things going on as well. But the truth is.....most soils are woefully low on nutrients. Just ask the farmers of America: there are few successful farmers, organic or otherwise, that don't add significant amounts of fertilizers to their fields. People who make a living as professional growers know this.

In my experience, most backyard gardeners don't realize how much food tomato plants need to maximize production. A lot. Therefore, most amateur tomato gardeners under-fertilizer their plants. But sometimes it's the opposite.

One of the worst things you can do is haphazardly throw stuff in your garden plot, thinking it's all good. To give an example: a garden center customer of ours was having some problems in their demo garden. I looked at it and had a suspicion, so I asked what they had added. Over the last few years they had added rabbit, chicken, and cow manures, alfalfa meal, bone meal, tons of compost, and other things as well. They had rich, dark , nice-looking soil.

I sent a soil sample off to the lab and my suspicion was correct: they were what I call "upside down". The report came back.....over-dosed on everything except a severe nitrogen deficiency. They had just about poisoned their plot. It's not so bad when you are over on the macros, but when you reach toxic levels on the micros you have a problem getting rid of them because they don't leach well. In this particular instance, boron was off the charts.

They literally couldn't add anything else to their soil except nitrogen, which they did in the form of a mild urea solution. This turned their garden around.

The moral of the story? Anything can be overdone, and that includes organic fertilizers. You can most certainly poison a plot of land with organics. Like most things in life, moderation is the key. Don't go crazy.

To your point. To optimize, you should start with a soil analysis to tell you where you stand. In general, tomatoes want less N as fruiting begins, and increasing amounts of calcium, magnesium, and potassium. You can get away with more N early on. The fastest way to get this kind of nutrition to your plants and see a result is with soluble, well-formulated nutrients.

You are exactly right about haphazardly adding lots of manure and compost. I did this for years and got wonderful soil full of worms and with great texture. Onions, cabbage and broccoli absolutely thrived in this soil. Problem was the addition of the heavy amounts of composted cow manure raised my P level to dangerous heights and the addition of tons of mushroom compost raised my ph to nearly 8 in every bed. Another benefit was the near elimination of RKN that attack tomatoes but it had little effect on the nematodes that attack squash, cucumbers and okra. The high ph made it very hard for my plants to use many of the minerals in the soil that are required. I have cut back on manures and only add my home made compost now along with seed meals. My plants are not as lush now but they are producing more fruit and less vine. I do miss those nearly foot wide heads of broccoli though.

I have been adding fairly large amounts of cottonseed meal and its acidity has helped greatly in reducing the ph and it has proved to be a wonderful slow release fertilizer. I also use alfalfa pellets but not as much as cottonseed meal. Both seem to really make the earthworms happy. It is best when adding alfalfa pellets to allow them time to breakdown before planting or you can suffer from nitrogen and iron deficiency if too many of the unbroken down pellets are near the roots of the new plants. Found this out the hard way. I now apply my seed meals a couple of weeks before planting and make sure they are watered and tilled in the top 4 or 5 inches of soil. I then use a mild dose of high nitrogen low P Miracle Grow right after the transplants are set out and again just as they start to bloom. Later in our long growing season I will water with a mild dose of the Miracle Grow as the plants need it.

I had very poor soil when I began gardening here 35 years ago and it looked like the addition of so much organic matter was really working well until I reached a point where I had over done it. As usual when something is working well I went ahead and added too much of it and after some really successful years started seeing some real declines and problems with mineral deficiencies so a soil test showed some of the problems. My soil turned out to be very high in almost every element except potasium and nitrogen with extremely high ph. When I started my early soil tests showed I was low in everything with very low ph. I guess it is probably a good idea to get a soil test ever year or two even when everything is looking good because you may be inadvertently making some harmful changes to your garden soil without being aware of them until it is nearly too late.

Bill

[Tracydr]

With my peppers and eggplants, which live years,I have to add some ironite because they are near the foundation and sidewalk. I also throw sulphur on about once a year. I also add blood every 2-3 months, when I process meat for the dogs or chickens. Gross I know but it does seem to really help them. I've had bumper crops of peppers since starting this.
I've yet to figure out the exact right balance for my tomatoes. Since they don't overwinter, I don't need to fertilize as much or as often. My main problem seems to have been over fertilizing. Even though I only use manures, bat guano, fish emulsion and kelp, I think I've used too much. This year, I plan to use less.