Saponin anyone?

[kurt]

Neighbor down the road was preparing some harvested Quinoa seeds by soaking and washing them in water.He was saving the water in jugs and told me in his country in Peru they used the water/tea for insecticide,fungicide around thier gardens.Did some quick web searches and seems to be a substance called saponin.The substance has to be washed from Quinoa for consumption(leaves a bitter taste and somewhat toxic).It is a natural defense from the plant for insecticdal and fungicidal qualitys.Is there anyone out there in TVille(academia,scientific)that can chime in?Looks promising.

[JamesL]

That is interesting Kurt. My only experience with saponin is the kind found in soap nuts. Not sure if it is the same thing though.

[RayR]

I'm trying Yucca extract for the same things, also as a spreader/sticker for applying foliar sprays.
Saponin's are natural soaps produced by many plants, extracts from Yucca schidigera and Quillaja saponaria (Soap Bark) are more common because they have high saponin concentrations than other plants and are safe to use.
Legumes, Alfalfa, Chestnuts, Spinach and many other plants produce beneficial saponins, then some plants produce toxic saponins that are poisonous to livestock and people too.

[kurt]

Originally Posted by RayR

I'm trying Yucca extract for the same things, also as a spreader/sticker for applying foliar sprays.
Saponin's are natural soaps produced by many plants, extracts from Yucca schidigera and Quillaja saponaria (Soap Bark) are more common because they have high saponin concentrations than other plants and are safe to use.
Legumes, Alfalfa, Chestnuts, Spinach and many other plants produce beneficial saponins, then some plants produce toxic saponins that are poisonous to livestock and people too.

Did some more inquiry and it seems to be more of a deterrent,preventative rather than outright "killer" of bugs and fungas.Even though it is "natural',as in everything else too much will be mortally toxic to some organisms.

[RayR]

Originally Posted by kurt

Did some more inquiry and it seems to be more of a deterrent,preventative rather than outright "killer" of bugs and fungas.Even though it is "natural',as in everything else too much will be mortally toxic to some organisms.

True as always, too much of a good thing is not always a good thing.
Saponins are not one specific chemical compound, but a number of similar compounds, different plants produce different saponins which are part of the plant defense mechanism against either fungal or bacterial pathogens, herbivores or leaf chewing insects. Of course it's not fool proof.
Tomato plants produce a glycoalkaloid, α-tomatine, a saponin that are highly concentrated in the leaves, but common pathogens like Septoria, Botrytis, Fusarium, Verticillium, and Alternaria defeat this defense mechanism by producing an saponin-detoxifying enzyme, tomatinase.

There is some truth to what Kurt's neighbor is doing with Quinoa seed extract, the EPA classifies it as a biochemical pesticide.
A commercial product made from Quinoa called Right On™ Plant Protectant is sold as a treatment for damping off fungi.

[kurt]

Thanks for the links RayR,nice to know that my neighbor is not forwarding a garden myth or some old wives tale.I was skeptical when he also mentioned that they also at one time washed thier hair with the saponin rinse.Got a good hearted laugh about that when I mentioned in jest about bugs ,lice,ticks and fleas.Good thing is now I have Quinoa(keen-wah) plants sprouting.Thanx again for the expanded mater info also.

[greentiger87]

I've actually looked into saponins a lot.

First off, purchased quinoa usually already has most of the saponins rinsed off. You'd have to evaporate the rinse water to reach a useful concentration in any case.

To expand on what RayR was saying, saponins are a huge class of molecules. The main thing that ties them together is that they are glycosides of triterpene derivatives. In plainer english, this means they are sugars/carbohydrates linked to triterpenes. Sugars and carbohydrates are polar, providing solubility in water. Triterpenes are an enormous class of compounds themeselves - almost all of them are non-polar and lipophilic, providing solubility in oils. The combination of the two molecules makes a saponin "amphi-pathic", meaning it can dissolve in both oil and water. This is why many of the earliest discovered saponins behaved like soaps and produced lather in water, and why they got the name "saponins" (actually via the genus Saponaria). The vast majority of saponins cannot actually be used as soap.

The range of bioactivity of these molecules is practically endless, and we've just scratched the surface of what's possible. There are some major obstacles though

1) Extracting and concentrating a useful quantity of a saponin from most plants can be very difficult.

2) Saponins in crude extracts can be quickly biodegraded by microorganisms in the environment.

3) Many saponins are poisonous, but mostly by ingestion. Some are poisonous even by contact - often the most useful ones.

The best studied plants with very large concentrations of saponins are Yucca and Soapbark. So far, no significant insecticidal activity has been found beyond the physical "soap" action that can kill soft bodied pests. Both of these are used in agriculture to reduce ammonia and fecal odor in carnivores, methane in livestock, and as a natural surfactant/spreader/penetration enhancer in agricultural sprays and soil soaks.

As far as I know, no strong, credible evidence based claims have been made as to specific fungicidal action. But you can readily buy yucca and soapbark extracts, or soapnuts, in hydroponics stores and on the internet. They make a variety of wild claims.

As an insecticide, I think insecticidal soap is still the better option.

I'm hopeful for potential effects as a fungicide or protectant, but the research isn't there yet. Since these are natural products, it may never be there.

[kurt]

Thanx for input.Hope they keep scratching and keep improving our benefits produced by Mother Nature so as to get away from man made chemical poisons I see being used and abused nowadays.

[RayR]

Yucca extract is the most common saponin for horticultural use. I've not seen any claims that it has any fungicidal or insecticidal use other than as a wetting agent for applying pesticides in soils and in foliar applications
It also has a high carbohydrate value so it is useful as food source for beneficial bacteria in the soil or in compost tea. You'll see it as an in many liquid organic fertilizers on the market.

[amideutch]

http://www.tandjenterprises.com/yucca.htm

[RayR]

Kelp4Less has Yucca Extract in soluble powder, no preservatives in it either.
You don't want Yucca with Sodium benzoate preservative since it will kill beneficial microorganisms.