Bacterial speck, septoria or something else?

[alpeldunas]

A couple days ago, I noticed it looked like some of the leaves on one of my Hillbilly tomato plants were turning black in places. Upon further inspection, there are many black specks comprising the black areas and some of the leaves are rolling upwards. I sprayed with copper yesterday (as I have been, but the rain isn't helping that) and this morning, the black has spread and looks much worse. I also see some brownish, dry looking spots that I think are septoria, but a good portion of the leaves have the black specks on them and it's getting worse. So far, I haven't noticed anything on my other plants, save a couple leaves with just a few tiny specks that I have removed. I trimmed the worst leaves off of the affected plant, but so many have the black specks, if I trimmed all of the affected leaves, it wouldn't have many left.

I think this is bacterial speck and maybe some septoria as well, but I'm worried it could be TSWV. My cooperative extension office can't help. The plant guy is on vacation until next week and VA Tech's lab is closed until August. I'm hoping someone here can give me some info. I have read that, although unsightly, bacterial speck isn't usually fatal to the plant. I am hoping to be able to keep it long enough to get a decent harvest, but if it's something bad, I don't want to lose all my plants to try to keep one. As I mentioned, I have been spraying with copper and Serenade interchangeably, but we are getting rain almost every day and I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle. I don't see any visible insects on the plant. I am located in Fredericksburg, VA (zone 7a) and the plant is in a 25qt self watering container.

[RayR]

I don't see any Septoria there, but I think you may be right that it's bacterial. The lack of a yellow halo would make me lean toward Syringae leaf spot (Pseudomonas syringae pv. syringae) instead of Bacterial Speck (Pseudomonas syringae pv. tomato). Same bacteria, just different strains.

[b54red]

You might want to alternate copper and Daconil. I've heard that Mancozeb and copper are good but I can't find Mancozeb around here right now and my plants have been suffering from the same thing for a month. I have no faith in Serenade which I relied on one summer and lost all my plants to diseases like this and it wasn't even a rainy summer like this has been. I don't think what you have is TSWV.

It is hard to slow down Septoria or speck diseases when it rains almost every day for over a month. My older plants look more like palm trees now and my newer ones are certainly lacking in adequate foliage. Every week for the past 5 weeks I have cut out a huge amount of diseased or dead leaves.

I seem to have it under better control now than earlier but it took a lot of spraying. I would spray with the bleach spray in the morning or evening and then the next morning or evening follow up with Daconil and then two days later use copper. I did this for about two weeks and even though it has been raining every day except one I haven't had nearly as much new disease showing up.

Bill

[alpeldunas]

Thank you for the replies thus far. I am a pessimist so I'm getting myself convinced that it's TSWV because my peppers are looking pretty rough too. I went out and looked more closely, though, and the new growth looks good and I don't think that's what affecting the peppers. The lower leaves also aren't as bad. It's the leaves towards the middle of the plant that are the worst. I didn't prune as much as I could have and the plant has more than one stem.

Bill (b54red), could you tell me how you make the bleach spray? Is it just bleach and water and what concentration? I was trying to go the organic route and not use Daconil, but if it's between losing my plants and using Daconil, the decision is simple. The rain is making my first gardening season very difficult!

[Lee]

Honestly, the photos first brought TSWV to mind.
However, considering Bill's comment and the fact that it's not effecting
new growth, I will defer to it not being TSWV at this point.
Keep a close eye on the new growth, and see if you have thrips (as they are the only vector for TSWV).

Otherwise, follow the other suggestions with regards to it being bacterial in nature.

Lee

[b54red]

There is a long thread in this section that explains the bleach spray in detail.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=28509

Bill

[alpeldunas]

Thank you Bill (b54red).

Lee, I have read that thrips are very hard to see. I have very good eyes, but certainly believe I could be missing something (especially because I have never seen thrips before). I trimmed some of the worst leaves off of the tomato plant, my peppers and a damaged leaf off my cucumber (because I read they can attack them as well) and shook and tapped the trimmings over a white piece of paper. I saw one white/translucent bug that looked like a gnat, a couple green aphids, a few small red ants and some round, black balls I thought were some kind of insect droppings until I realized some of them were unrolling and wiggling around like some kind of black larvae. I don't think I saw any thrips, but I don't know exactly how small they would be or if that method would even work (I read it online and thought I could give it a try).

If you, or anyone else, has any guidance on detecting and identifying thrips I would be very appreciative. As I mentioned, my cooperative extension office can't offer any help until next week at the earliest (and I will be away when the plant guy gets back) and the pictures I have been online have not allowed me to determine what's going on ...and the pictures of thrips all look quite magnified.

[Lee]

A good way to check for thrips is collect a small glass jar (baby food works great) and an electric toothbrush.
Put the jar below an open tomato blossom and use the electric toothbrush to vibrate the flower.
Not only will pollen fall into the jar, but also any thrips feeding on
your plant. (They tend to like the flowers)

If you see any flea like/size critters crawling around, those are most likely thrips.

However remember that if you do find thrips, it is not conclusive that they are vectoring TSWV, just that it is a possibility.

Lee

[alpeldunas]

I can do that! I have small Mason jars and an electric toothbrush. I just sprayed with Neem oil, but I think I'll go try it now and then again tomorrow or the next day before I leave for a week to see if I can detect any. I'm just going to keep an eye on things and hope that rain holds off for a couple days so I can spray again with fungicide tomorrow and make a decision whether or not to pull the plant before I leave.

[alpeldunas]

So, I did the jar/toothbrush trick and did find a few thrips on the clearly affected plant. Then I checked the neighboring plant and found more there. Then, I looked in one of the blossoms on one of my peppers and found some more. Wow ...they are tiny. I can see how you would never see them unless there was a bunch of them.

How very disappointing. I was so excited to finally have my own garden this year and grow my own vegetables. I never realized there were so many things to worry about! I think I'm just going to leave the affected plant. Upon very close inspection, there are a few specks on each of the neighboring plants and I assume if it is TSWV, they all have it if they all have those purplish specks. I only have a few plants anyway and all three ones with specks still have healthy looking new growth and are fruiting (although the most affected one has only a couple very small, green tomatoes. I was reading on another thread that Bill (b54red) was still able to harvest some fruit from two plants even after they were infected. This plant is about 4 feet tall and still looks pretty healthy. The other two are even taller and healthier looking.

I'm going to get some sticky traps and just cross my fingers that I can get enough tomatoes to taste a few different varieties. Maybe my other plants on the other side of the house won't get infected. And as Lee mentioned, maybe it's not TSWV ...but between the thrips and looking at pictures other members have posted, I have a feeling it might be.

[alpeldunas]

I have one more question I would like to get some feedback on ...if I find I am sure this is TSWV ...either by diagnosis by having it tested next week or by progression of the virus ...would pulling the plant now reduce future risk of TSWV? I know immediately it would reduce the chance that other plants that aren't already infected would get infected, but if that's not a concern, I wonder how much not pulling my plants is aiding in the spread of the virus. I was just reading that the virus can also be spread to weeds, shrubs and grass and it seems like it would be unethical to keep the plant in order to try to get some fruit for myself and continue to allow thrips to eat the infected plant and spread the virus.

Thoughts?

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by alpeldunas

I have one more question I would like to get some feedback on ...if I find I am sure this is TSWV ...either by diagnosis by having it tested next week or by progression of the virus ...would pulling the plant now reduce future risk of TSWV? I know immediately it would reduce the chance that other plants that aren't already infected would get infected, but if that's not a concern, I wonder how much not pulling my plants is aiding in the spread of the virus. I was just reading that the virus can also be spread to weeds, shrubs and grass and it seems like it would be unethical to keep the plant in order to try to get some fruit for myself and continue to allow thrips to eat the infected plant and spread the virus.

Thoughts?

I don't. If I was advising some one else I would recommend drastic measures, but me personally?

[alpeldunas]

Redbaron,

Can I ask what the variables or reasons are behind you not pulling your own plants but recommending others do? I am curious to what the thought process is.

Perhaps, explaining my purpose for growing tomatoes would help you advise whether I would be better following drastic measures or mirroring your approach and not pulling. I'm not looking for mass quantity. I'm only one person and my mother actually laughed at me for planting five plants (I'm up to 9 now with some cuttings I rooted that I will be planting just to see if they survive). Mostly, I wanted to try different types of tomatoes to get an idea of what I like. I used to absolutely hate tomatoes until I was convinced to try some that were home grown. I realized they were pretty delicious when they didn't come from the grocery store. This is the first year I've been home long enough to have my own "garden" (my dogs prevent me from actually planting in the ground). I've been deployed or way too busy with work and this summer, I finally decided I was going to have a garden and grow my own veggies. My peppers already seem to be failures ...I'm actually wondering if they didn't have the virus first (I bought them at Home Depot and have heard bad things about their plants). Really, I'm just hoping now to get enough to taste the different tomato varieties and maybe eat a few peppers and cucumbers I grew myself.

That said, I think if I don't have a huge crop and have to pull a badly diseased plant in a few weeks, it would be better if I could at least get a few fruit off of it first. Only one of my neighbors grows anything and his garden is pretty far away. I don't feel like I would be hurting others around me if I didn't pull this plant ...I guess I just worry too much.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback and anything else you may have to offer.

[Lee]

I wouldn't pull at this time.
Just because you have thrips doesn't mean that they are the ones that
vector TSWV. Also, until you see the spots on new foliage, I wouldn't
think it was TSWV.
There's a very long sticky post about TSWV that should help you diagnose it moving forward.

BTW, when I was collecting pollen from 3 plants for a new cross I made I found thrips on all three plants. However, no TSWV here this year.

So, let 'em be and see what happens.

Lee

[b54red]

As Lee said since this problem is not showing up in the newest growth you probably don't have TSWV. With TSWV one of the first things you usually see is the plant just stops growing. The new growth will start taking on a little discoloration and have very stunted growth. I had a massive thrip invasion this spring. They were all over every plant and I mean all over. I have only seen them that thick one time before. I kept waiting to see how many plants would die from the thrip attack and it ended up only two plants got sick with TSWV. Just a few weeks ago I had two more plants get TSWV so this year I have only had 4 cases and that is one of the lowest I have seen in quite a few years. I only pull a TSWV infected plant if it is too small and has no good sized fruit set. A big healthy plant can take quite a long time to die from TSWV sometimes and can give you a good crop despite being sick. I have never had it spread from the sick plants to others no matter how long I have left them in the garden. However if a plant is young and definitely has TSWV it is much better to go ahead and pull it and replace it.

I know you think your leaves look bad but compared to the ones I'm dealing with this year you are in pretty good shape. Go ahead and start treating them before your plants get a lot worse, which they will do if the rainy weather persists.

I sprayed Daconil this morning and this afternoon about two o'clock it rained really hard. It has done that every time I have sprayed for the past month. It is frustrating but I am still setting out plants for fall and still getting some fruit off my older palm trees despite them having almost no foliage.

I think I'll spray with copper fungicide tomorrow but I'll have to go buy some more. Darn, it just started flooding again.

Bill