Is our soil fixable?

[linzelu100]

I live on 9 acres of wooded mountain virginia land. It's beautiful- the problem is, this new home....errrr gets the swampiest, muckiest soil. We are kind of set down low in a "bowl" from our neighbors, next to a creek and natural springs. As an ameateur I thought that would be good for gardening. It rained for an hour today, and now the entire yard is a swamp. My foot gets stuck a foot deep down in the mud. My garden area has puddles everywhere. I have read that raised beds would fix this, but I am not sure and not sure it is worth the cost. We are renting this home for now, but are considering buying it; I am hesitant for this reason. I want my dream garden- I am not sure if this can be the place, but it is a lot of house for the money. A really nice deal.

Since I am so new at this I read a lot about gardening. I see farmers stick a shovel in the ground pull up soil and say if they can farm there or not. Name a weed and determine if the land is fertile. How can I be one of these people? What can I read to learn about this?

Our soil is heavy clay, but right now it is a swamp. Ultimately, I'd like to garden one acre in the future- raised beds don't seem likely at that large level.

Thanks for reading.

[Worth1]

Do like they do in the coastal plains.

Plant your crops up on large long mounds/hills.

This will keep the plants from getting water logged.

Worth

[RayR]

That's a difficult situation being in the lowland with heavy clay. Raised beds would be a solution but you'll still need some kind of drainage system to keep all that water from building up.

[joseph]

Something is currently growing in the swamp... What families are represented? Are any of them edible? Are any close relatives edible? What about turning the area into a rice paddy or a cranberry bog? How well does cress grow in the springs?

Is the area routinely swampy, or only during certain seasons of the year? Are there crops that would prosper in the area during dry spells?

Worth's suggestion of mounds is inexpensive to implement.

[dustdevil]

I know lots of gardeners grow their tomatoes in containers. Plenty of great container growings tips in the forums here. Don't buy a house that is built on low swampy heavy soil. This situation often leads to foundation problems, mildew and mold, etc. What good is land that you can't use? Maybe after renting for a little longer, your will be able to clearly make a wise decision. Check out the septic system...it may be illegal...it should have a holding tank for wet heavy clay soil. Have the well water checked to make sure no human waste is getting into the water.

[linzelu100]

Originally Posted by joseph

Worth's suggestion of mounds is inexpensive to implement.

My husband doesn't want to move again to just rent somewhere else for a year before buying a house- so renting here for a year, maybe all that is possible. I am considering worth's rec. of buying extra soil and really mounding it up, at least for tomatoes.

Originally Posted by joseph

Is the area routinely swampy, or only during certain seasons of the year? Are there crops that would prosper in the area during dry spells?

Worth's suggestion of mounds is inexpensive to implement.

No it isn't always swampy. Some puddles in the summer here and there but pretty rock hard dry in summer. It is swampy after each rain for a few days. I had an ok garden this summer, but lost 60/100 tomato plants to molds/disease that I was not used to or prepared for. As for crops that would do well- pumpkins grew excellent here this summer, but I want to grow a big variety of things and tomatoes are my favorites.

[linzelu100]

Originally Posted by joseph

Something is currently growing in the swamp... What families are represented? Are any of them edible? Are any close relatives edible? What about turning the area into a rice paddy or a cranberry bog? How well does cress grow in the springs?

^ this is what I am after. I don't know the answers- but I would like to obtain the knowledge to answer them. That way when we look at land, I will know what to look for. Nothing is growing in the garden- infact, it was covered with straw for fall and all the grass completely grew back over. it's a 34 foot by 32 foot rectangle. It is now a grass lawn again. Boo hoo

What families are rep? you mean when I planted seeds or what things grow there now on their own?

On their own- there are wild blackberries, honeysuckle of some sort, red bud trees, lots of hardwood trees and pine trees. As for weeds- I only know a couple by identification- some dandelion and I did notice fiddlehead ferns by the creek. I don't know identifications of plants well and what they mean for the environment, but would like too. There are tons of varieties of weird fire red mushrooms.

Lots of animal families, red fox, black bear, deer, coyotes, moles, mice, hawks, turkey buzzards, skunk. Typical forest animals.

I dont want to grow cranberries or rice, so if that were my options I def. need to get out of here! I haven't found any wild cress in the springs. I have cress seed- I could scatter it out there and see how it does, but I dont plant anything in the wild without knowing if the effect it is going to have is ok-b/c I dont have the knowledge to know if it is ok.

[linzelu100]

Originally Posted by dustdevil

I know lots of gardeners grow their tomatoes in containers. Plenty of great container growings tips in the forums here. Don't buy a house that is built on low swampy heavy soil. This situation often leads to foundation problems, mildew and mold, etc. What good is land that you can't use? Maybe after renting for a little longer, your will be able to clearly make a wise decision. Check out the septic system...it may be illegal...it should have a holding tank for wet heavy clay soil. Have the well water checked to make sure no human waste is getting into the water.

I think this is good advice. I didn't know that about the septic tank. My hubby really likes it here, but I keep telling him that there are other places that are nice too. I think he just doesn't want to move our library of books again! Those boxes are so heavy!

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by linzelu100

I live on 9 acres of wooded mountain virginia land. It's beautiful- the problem is, this new home....errrr gets the swampiest, muckiest soil. We are kind of set down low in a "bowl" from our neighbors, next to a creek and natural springs. As an ameateur I thought that would be good for gardening. It rained for an hour today, and now the entire yard is a swamp. My foot gets stuck a foot deep down in the mud. My garden area has puddles everywhere. I have read that raised beds would fix this, but I am not sure and not sure it is worth the cost. We are renting this home for now, but are considering buying it; I am hesitant for this reason. I want my dream garden- I am not sure if this can be the place, but it is a lot of house for the money. A really nice deal.

Since I am so new at this I read a lot about gardening. I see farmers stick a shovel in the ground pull up soil and say if they can farm there or not. Name a weed and determine if the land is fertile. How can I be one of these people? What can I read to learn about this?

Our soil is heavy clay, but right now it is a swamp. Ultimately, I'd like to garden one acre in the future- raised beds don't seem likely at that large level.

Thanks for reading.

If grass grows there now, take a shovel when it dries out and see if the soil has a mollisol pore structure. If it does, do NOT till turn or plow it at ALL. Paper and mulch the rows only and leave the sod growing between rows. This will give the soil enough pore structure to allow the plants to survive a flood.

When you plant through the mulch and paper in spring, just remove a plug, and fill with compost and the seedling. Be sure to inoculate.


If you go to "The Red Baron Project" you will see the pictures from last year how I did it, as well as the month long swamp that didn't harm my seedlings at all because of this method.

Till the soil though and it wont work. You destroy the pore structure and might be as many as 10-15 years to get it back in some cases.

The Red Baron Project

[linzelu100]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

If grass grows there now, take a shovel when it dries out and see if the soil has a mollisol pore structure. If it does, do NOT till turn or plow it at ALL. Paper and mulch the rows only and leave the sod growing between rows. This will give the soil enough pore structure to allow the plants to survive a flood.

When you plant through the mulch and paper in spring, just remove a plug, and fill with compost and the seedling. Be sure to inoculate.


If you go to "The Red Baron Project" you will see the pictures from last year how I did it, as well as the month long swamp that didn't harm my seedlings at all because of this method.

Till the soil though and it wont work. You destroy the pore structure and might be as many as 10-15 years to get it back in some cases.

The Red Baron Project

We tilled it last year- do you think we ruined it?

[Worth1]

Do me no yourself a favor and look on line and see the many soil tests they have to see what kind of soil you really have.

Here I looked for you.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...,d.cWc&cad=rja

This will tell what you really have.

Now I would like to ask what color it is?
If it is red then it contains a lot of oxidized iron.
Also if it is in a low place then this area has taken in all of the wash off from above.
This includes nutrients and organic matter.

This soil may not be as bad as you think.
It may be a swamp now but as you stated in the summer it gets hard.
A lot of people think you need soil like potting soil to grow crops in, you dont.

Think of the place like a flood plain. many of the worlds crops are grown in a flood plain.
From swamp to crops.

Egypt and the Nile delta is one I can think of off hand.

And no you didn't ruin your soil by tilling it people still till their soil and grow crops every year.

I would like to add you wouldn't have to buy soil.
Till the soil and heap the lose dirt up in long rows.

Not a big fan of tilling but you can do this and get a good crop unless the soil has so much clay the roots of some plants cant take up nutrients.
Caly is microscopic platelets and the nutrients get trapped there and some plants like tomatoes have a hard time getting the food.

And one other thing you only need around 3 inches of good soil on top.
The feeder roots run along the surface of the soil to get nutrients.
Think rain rain forest and the poor soil it grows on.
The trees get everything from the surface.

You will read this and get conflicting information from others.
My experience comes from growing in just about every soil there is from clay to sand.


Worth

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by linzelu100

We tilled it last year- do you think we ruined it?

Ruined is a bit extreme, but yes, it is not a good thing in your situation. Don't feel bad though. There are millions of acres out there that have also lost their original pore structure as well. It just turns out that with very wet heavy clay the problem is magnified.

I just happened to talk to a Phd agronomist 2 days ago on the very subject. He claims naturally it takes 15 years of no til for nature to fully recover from tilling. Yet that is the first thing every one does.

A couple things you can do to help. one is NEVER work clay when wet. Take a hand full of soil and squeeze it into a clod. Press with you thumb. If you get a thumb print, it is too wet. If it crumbles, you can work it. But in your situation you need to work good long lasting high lignified carbon into the soil, and lots of it. Aged wood chips should do the trick. Remember LOTS of it. 3-6 inches over the whole thing, and since you already broke down the pore structure, it is ok to afterwards till that in. and cover that with mulch.

If you still wish to follow the technique I am developing to heal the land, after you till it in plant a perennial grass like bluegrass and clover mixture in very early spring. Then follow the technique as posted.

I don't fertilize except at plant out and even then only lightly around each seedling. This is because perennial grass biomes are self fertilizing. But in your case you will need to fertilize due to the high carbon to low nitrogen ratio of wood chips. At least for the first year, and maybe 2 or 3 years. I hear that Texas Tomato Food is a good one for this, and will trial it this year myself.

Otherwise, the raised bed technique is probably the only option you have now that you already broke the sod last year. Not that you couldn't keep trying the traditional tillage, but you'll be fighting a constant battle.

[Cole_Robbie]

I would rent a tractor for a day to make your raised beds. I would also still plan to use drip irrigation, even though it is low land. Raised beds dry out faster and the summer weather is unpredictable.

[bower]

Lindsey, I have a great little book about weeds - it's an old classic "Weeds and What they Tell Us", it is available on Amazon and elsewhere.
http://www.amazon.com/Weeds-What-The.../dp/0863159257

[bughunter99]

Mud that is a foot deep is extreme and I would take a pass on this property if given the option. This is likely to be just one of the issues you are going to encounter with a house in a low lying bowel including settling, flooding, mold, mosquitoes not to mention the garden issues.