Just an observation ...

[Tomstrees]

After reviewing detailed notes of my
"2006 seasons journal" last night ,
I noticed that for the 2006 season,
foliar diseases completely killed only RL plants ...

The PL plants fought the disease;
lost leaves but the vines eventually out grew it ...

I thought this was really interesting ...
I'm going to try a 50/50 (RL to PL)
next season just to see whats what
in my neck of the woods ...

Anyone notice anything different ?

~ Tom

[spudleafwillie]

Tom,
Although we had a record 14 inches of rain between July 1 and Sept 15 this year, my 95 PLs were far less affected by foliar diseases than the 10 RL varieties. I didn't have any plants die completely, both RL and PL, but the RL plants lost a lot more foliage than my spudleafs did. In a normal year with 5-6 inches of rain in that same period I see very little foliar disease and leaf loss because of our dry climate and corresponding low humidities (10-15%) during the summer months.
Regards,
Spud

[carolyn137]

Tom, I have said over and over at every place where I post, for many years, that my PL varieties did much better with the common foliage diseases, and have said it here as well.

At the end of the season when most of the RL's are down and out the PL's are still green.

But when I've said that others have said that they see no difference whatsoever, so I don't know why it is that I and some others see that difference and others don't. And I don't think it's due to different PL varieties.

My own unsubstantiated theory is that the epidermis of PL leaves is thicker than RL leaves thus making bacterial and fungal penetration more difficult.

[gardengalrn]

I have noticed this as well, in my limited space. Many of the plants/tomatoes that I consider winners in my garden are of the potato leaf variety. I did try to be objective, since I love the taste of Cherokee Purple/Chocolate and they have always done so poorly in my garden. For some reason, they are always the first to fall. Anyway, whether be it coincidence or not, my favorites tend to be potato leaf varieties. They tend to be the last man standing.

[Andrey_BY]

I've noticed this as well, but as for your growing conditions PL varieties have got another big minus as their rather large leaves shield stems and tomato fruits from the main sun so PL varieties bears fruits much later here in Zone 4 than PL plants even indoor (greenhouse). Of course we cut off more and more leaves till the end of season, but there is still a need for them as a source of photosynthesis for a plant.
So I must admit about 90-95% of Russian tomato varieties have got regular foliage. There are some more Moldovian, Ukrainian and Southern Russian varieties with PL, but unfortunately they are not suitable for growing in our open soil conditions.
As for intermediate leaf type (you call it Rugose) on mainly tree-type tomato plants they can be both tolerant or less tolerant to foliage diseases. If we speak about compact tree-type varieties (we call them "shtamb") usually they are very early and bear most of fruits in open soil before mid August when the Late Blight is here. Thanks to the famous Russian breeder Alpat'ev from Timiryazev Agr. Academy who had started to work with such types of tomato plants in the late 1920s and bred many reliable varieties in 1930s and later on (Shtambovyi Alpat'eva 905A and many others)

[Grub]

Hi Andrey,

I thought it was ambient air temperatures not light that ripens tomatoes. Put them in a drawer in a brown paper bag if you must. But put them on the window sill in the sun and, if it's not warm, zip. No ripening.

Still, I think this is an academic argument since, because even when my PLs are still green late in the season the fruiting process has finished on PLs and RLs or, at best, is on the wane.

So, in short, they are prolonged PL death throes.

[westocast73]

Grub the paper bag or enclosed space works to ripen a tomato because of ethylene gas. The gas can't escape and thus helps ripen the fruit. It is more complicated then that but thats the general gist .

[Andrey_BY]

Greetings, Grub!

All I can say we used to think that both air temperute and light ripens tomatoes on the vine, because light (sun radiation) and temperatute (of the air) is dependable. Of course I used to bear green unripe tomatoes and then let them store before they get ripen, but their taste is usually is not so reach somehow (or it is just my experience).

And I forgot to mention that tomato plants with a lot of large leaves (i.e. PL) have troubles with airation (blowing) especially in greenhouses.

Unfortunalelly we have got a very high humidity in Belarus even in summer which is very stimulating for Late Blight together with rather low night temperatures. So most of tomato plants with any leaf types burn in mid-late August here unless they are early enough to bring most of fruits before August 10-15 :wink:

[Grub]

Thanks for the report Andrey.

Cold nights and high humidity is an interesting mix!

Here it's warm and humid, so the early blight is very happy with that.

I agree that tomatoes ripened off the vine don't taste as good as vine ripened.

I have very good fruitset this year by using a bloom booster. Lots of flowers and nice baby fruits.

BTW: My Uncle was leader of the Communist Party in Australia and I remember the government bashing down my grandparents' door and raiding their house when I was a little boy. He went to live in Russian in the end, but came back totally disenchanted. He no longer championed Communism, at least the version he saw of it. So best wishes to you and your family in the sometimes difficult but improving circumstances.

[Andrey_BY]

Yes, it must be rather strange for you to know that our average humidity in Belarus ranges between 50% and 80% in warmer time and between 80% and 100% in the cold time. For example, now we have got 99-100% and endless fogs... Average temperatures are accoding Zone 4a, but we are under warm Atlantic and much colder continental influence at the same time so everything is usually rather inpredictable. That's why it is very important here to have at least one ot two greenhouses to bear guaranteed yield :wink:


Communist regime had been fallen down 15 years ago and Russia is now semi-capitalistic, semi-democratic country, but as for Belarus we are still looks like small China or big Northern Korea with Lukashenko being the last dictator in Europe...
There are two groups of people in former Soviet Union as for their relationship to Communism and what bolsheviks had done for us during their more than 70 years as the one and only Party in USSR. The first group feels a big USSR nostalgie when all 15 Republics were united, there were a lot of social programms etc. And other people (me as well :wink: ) more regret about October Revolution happen, because in pre-1917 times Russian Empire was one of the richest countries and Russian ruble was much more powerful than USD :wink:

[Grub]

Thanks Andrey,

I trust you have plenty of fine produce stacked away for winter after a good season in the dacha?

The cupboards are empty here

[Andrey_BY]

You are right, canning is very important question here. As we usually have snow from November till the late March - early April and there is always an increase of prices (2-3 time more) in imported fruits and vegetables in this time many people couldn't live without what they were able to grow in summer-autumn and luckily canned for winter-early spring use.

Actually that is why Russians don't like to grow beefsteak tomatoes as much as small to middle size which are the best for canning :wink: And you can imagine how many jars of canned tomatoes and cukes we need to have something to eat while drinking vodka or something else warming your body and soul when it is - 20 or -30 C outside and there is a lot of snow, humidity is 99-100% and you've just came back from your job

But now it is an anomalous +5 +7 C here and I regret I've already change tyre for winter type on my car after the first snow in early November...

[Tania]

Originally Posted by Andrey_BY

Actually that is why Russians don't like to grow beefsteak tomatoes as much as small to middle size which are the best for canning :wink: And you can imagine how many jars of canned tomatoes and cukes we need to have something to eat while drinking vodka or something else heating (warming) your body and soul when it is - 20 or -30 C outside and there is a lot of snow, humidity is 99-100% and you've just came back from your job

Andrey, I think it depends on where you live in Russia
For instance, my Grandma, my Mom's mother, who lived in Krasnodar region (near Grozny, Chechnya), never canned tomatoes. (Although she did can lots of duck meat... for winter use) I think in the south Russia people generally preferred larger tomatoes (heck, they have very nice growing conditions there for late season varieties, so why not? ; the main use for these were salads and fresh eating - at least from my experience, when I was a child and visited my southern relatives every summer. That was the place where I first discovered that the huge tasty pink 1 lb tomatoes exist... yummmm...

I'd argee that in the northern areas of Russia canning is the most common way of handling dacha's produce - I remember my 'northern' grandma (my Dad's mom) who lives in South Urals, wouldn't even give us kids to sample too many fresh strawberries or tomatoes - everything was going into jam or pickling jars right away.

Tom, I realize that this is off topic - please accept my apologies for hijacking the thread

[Andrey_BY]

Tania, I'm fully agree with your remark, but as you know Russia as well as former Soviet Union countries occupies a very big area (about 1/6 of Earth lands as we had been told at Soviet schools :wink: ). And Southern parts of Russia + Moldova + warm part of Ukraine is just a very small part of the whole especially when we compare them with Central part, Siberia and Far East. But if we add to these warm areas also Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and other Middle Asian former Soviet -stan countries that would a a rather big separate region with a warm and even hot climate where people can grow everything and I'm sure their tomato growing traditions could be very similar to American or Canadian Zones 6+

But yes, it is kind of a spiteful off-topic - Russian days in McDonalds And an excursion to former Soviet geography and tomato growing habits

[Tania]

back on topic...

The very first season I grew PL varieties I thought they are definitely more resistant to foliage diseases.

This year, when I grew a lot of RL and PL vars. (about 150 or so) I didn't notice a huge difference... however, some RL varieties were definitely less resistant... I didn't spray anything, so the plants grew under 'natural' conditions... However, the summer was very dry, so not a lot of foliage issues came up until mid-Sept.

My conclusions so far are:
- in a good dry summer I can't see the difference
- in a very wet cool summer I'd say PL vars are a bit more resistant to foliage problems
- the worst in terms of foliage issues are black varieties - especially early in the season.
- at the end of summer (Sept/Oct) all my tomato plants quickly die from late blight once heavy rains start here, PL or RL, doesn't matter - unless they are under plastic cover, which gives them a somewhat extended live