what pushes plants into growth stage vs productive stage

[Lindalana]

I do not want to add to another fert thread but am consistenty reading that some additives- fertilizers can push plant towards either growth stage or production stage. Would be great if someone points me in right direction - how and by change in what substances. I understand basics of Nitrogen being given more or less but it does not appear to be that simple. Also if some indet tomatoes behave differently i.e. some are continuous production plants like smaller cherries and some seems to go into cycles of producing set of tomatoes then after few weeks go into another production set. Here in Chicago I get about 2 sets of those if I am lucky. So do I need to mind which tomato has which habit and address their needs with different fertilizer.

[peppero]

I am eminently not qualified to offer a scientifically based opinion but, I wish I could. I have wondered why plants will advance in growth and then stop for some time and then suddenly a big growth spurt which proceeds to further development. It seems to me that the roots develope during the no or very slow growth period to where they can support the BIG SPURT. Anyone care to jump in and support or smush this thought from an unqualified plant grower?

jon

[bower]

As regards fertilizers, afaik phosphorus is the key nutrient for flowering and setting fruit. But there are other factors that push plants towards vegetative or reproductive growth, have a look at this:

http://ag.arizona.edu/ceac/sites/ag....20tomatoes.pdf

[Fiishergurl]

Bower.... love that article. Thanks for posting it.

Ginny

[carolyn137]

I think your title should be what leads a plant in the initial growth ( vegetative) stage to switch to the sexual stage of blossoms and fruit set.

All I know is that too much fertilizer or growing in too rich soil can keep a plant in the vegetative stage and often very much delay the sexual cycle. And that b'c plant energy is diverted to the vegetative cycle.

Under normal conditions it's the genes that a variety has that determines how long the vegetative cycle lasts and the genes also direct energy to the sexual cycle.

Yes, I've seen many folks say use this or that fertilizer to push that conversion, but IMO that's secondary to gene control.

Carolyn, who has never used different fertilizers to help switch growth cycles, b'c she prefers to rely on the natural way that that happens, which is direction from the genes.

[Fiishergurl]

Carolyn - what type of fertilizer do you use and when do you apply it? This is my first year growing and I way over did it in the fertilizer dept. Theres so much conflicting information. I've learned more is not necessarily better.

Ginny

[remy]

Originally Posted by peppero

I am eminently not qualified to offer a scientifically based opinion but, I wish I could. I have wondered why plants will advance in growth and then stop for some time and then suddenly a big growth spurt which proceeds to further development. It seems to me that the roots develope during the no or very slow growth period to where they can support the BIG SPURT. Anyone care to jump in and support or smush this thought from an unqualified plant grower?

jon

Jon, yes is true. Plants need the roots to support the plant growth. Some things this is really noticeable with like vines. They grow a bit and then sit there, and then suddenly holy moly growth spurt! Other things though can slow a plant down. Being stressed for some reason like drought or cold weather will slow them down. Then when the stress is over, they grow faster.
Remy

[Lindalana]

Bower, thanks for article! Seems like a lot can be controlled in greenhouse settings but much less with regular outdoor weather. Also am not very clear is it always just vegetative phase and then productive or they rather both run at some time and there is just dominance of one over another...
Carolyn, got the genes part. However DTM is so varied that environmental part seems to be be playing very large factor. So it seems we can not control weather but something we can do.
Jon, I do too am looking to see if I can get ahead on cutting time between those flushes of fruiting. If we can improve soil energy and nutrients support, can we grow roots faster... I extend my season on the front by using WOW and early planting so I get first indet large varieties mid to end July but then there is these few weeks ... about 6 weeks or so before second flush of tomatoes comes it. Granted too much fertilizer is not a good thing.... what about doling out that said fertilizer... right at the peak of first flush turning red add just a bit of calcium carbonate and soft rock phosphate not enough to do big job but just offset scales...

[ddsack]

Also am not very clear is it always just vegetative phase and then productive or they rather both run at some time and there is just dominance of one over another...

It seems to me that a tomato plant can do it all, once it has established itself. We see ripe tomatoes, small tomatoes, blossums and new sucker production as well as top growth, all on the same plant at one time. It makes sense that the roots have to keep expanding proportionally in order to supply the increasingly larger plant with nutrients. Of course in a fixed environment like a pot, the roots will run out of expansion room, and extra fertilizer will have to be supplied since the plant is restricted from seeking out fresh territory.
Can we know for sure, if various waves of fruiting have not been created by other factors such as periods of hot or cold temperatures or high humidity, instead of some plant cycle? I don't knowingly grow determinates, so don't know if they all have more than one cycle of fruit set, but with indets, I can't say that I've seen anything but steady growth and fruitset, assuming the weather is decent all summer.

[Lindalana]

Ddsack, do you observe difference between indet small cherry type production and large indet types... because it is what I see cherries are usually pumpers- once they start, they keep pumping out more and more in one long cycle. Not the same with large indet var. Get load of flowers, then load of fruits , after ripening most of them you see some large new flush of flowers and cycle repeats. Granted, at same time you will see ripe, unripe fruit and some flowers but there is up and down to it in my experience.

[ddsack]

Linda, I have not experienced any consistent stop and start cycles on flowers and fruit. I am a big indet tomato lover, so tend not to grow very many cherries (except for Sungold) and I stay away from determinates because fruit ripening all at once does not appeal to me either.

Once in a while, I have noticed a long gap in some long season tomatoe, like Aunt Gertie's Gold, where I may get one large unexpectedly early tomato, but then the rest mature later in the expected time frame. But other than that, I see flowers and tomatoes in all stages all during my season and have not experienced stop and start flowering. I did go back and read Bower's link, and it was indeed interesting in which stress factors can be manipulated into causing vegetative vs reproductive growth. My feeling is that both natural local weather conditions, as well as gardening practices will mimic conditions in his chart. So it's not a plant cycle as such, but it's environmental stresses that determine and manipulate flowering and fruiting. Since every one has different weather, and different methods and products for fertilizing, I can certainly believe that waves of fruit and flowers can happen.

Maybe my growing season is too short for the plants to need to take a break.

[ddsack]

One additional thing occurred to me -- do you by chance prune to a single stem? Carolyn has said that the flower cycle is about two weeks. I don't prune much, so I have suckers of all ages, all on their own individual two week cycles, so the plant is always in bloom somewhere. But if a person pruned to only one stem, it makes sense that you would only notice new flowers every few weeks.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fiishergurl

Carolyn - what type of fertilizer do you use and when do you apply it? This is my first year growing and I way over did it in the fertilizer dept. Theres so much conflicting information. I've learned more is not necessarily better.

Ginny

I had written a response and lost it. But thnking about this thread and some others I think I'm going to put up a thread about growing tomatoes scientifically, as it were, or for fun, for many, or even for home use for canning, sauces, etc.

I'm thinking back to when we grew many acres of tomatoes at the old farm, what they were like and what was used, as well as the farms of the Emerichs, the Sleasmans, the Voghts and more recently Charlie Brizzells farm, where I leaned so much from him.

I see folks throwing all sorts of products at their tomatoes b'c they read here or there that they could get more blossoms, more fruit, earlier fruits and on and on.

And I wonder if it's all the hype being put out online that has lured so many into doing what they do.

Please don't answer this post in this thread, b'c I do intend to start a new thread about all of this.

Thanks,

Carolyn

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Please don't answer this post in this thread, b'c I do intend to start a new thread about all of this.

Thanks,

Carolyn

Worth

[Lindalana]

Ddsack, I do not torture my plants and let them grow the way they can. It is more that tomatoes large indet come in waves and second wave happens quite a bit later so for Chicago it may or may not be good timing. Anything that comes in Sept for me is a bonus so shifting it all a bit ahead is a great goal. I do not grow many late varieties but for those I only get one flush that is if I am lucky and they started early.