Commercial heirloom production

[kimera]

Does anyone know of a farm producing heirloom tomatoes on a commercial scale? If so, could you describe it? Varieties, where they market, how much they sell for, etc.?

[feldon30]

As I mentioned in this thread:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...545424195.html

Be Wise Ranch grows 15 varieties of heirloom tomatoes in California and has started shipping them to certain markets. I encountered these incredible-tasting heirlooms at Whole Foods Market here in Houston. Their purple tomatoes were on par with Cherokee Purples grown here in Houston. At one point they had bicolor, red, pink, purple, yellow, orange, green, and white.

Then a few weeks later, I stumbled upon TomatoFest(Gary Ibsen's outfit) tomatoes at H-E-B. They had bicolors, purples, pinks, yellow, etc.

Pictures of both can be found here:
http://www.feldoncentral.com/garden/tomatoes/?ind=8

As I mentioned in this thread:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...140611517.html


I was underwhelmed recently by the Sunset heirloom tomatoes being produced in Canada. I am guessing it is because of the late season, greenhouse growing, and perhaps choice of varieties.


As much as I hate to point people to GardenWeb, they do have a "Market" forum which has a lot of posts and advice from people who grow tomatoes and other veggies for a living or as a side hobby for market.

Of course the first thing that happens is naive/closeminded customers smoosh your perfectly ripe tomatoes to death. That's if they dare touch any tomato that's not perfectly red and round! I think most market gardeners get a bit jaded and grow at least a percentage of what people "expect" when they go to a farmer's market. Namely, firm, red, perfectly round and blemish free tomatoes. If I were a market gardener, I would create a 24" x 18" sign "PLEASE DO NOT SQUEEZE THE TOMATOES" or "YOU SQUISH IT YOU BOUGHT IT!" or "WE SELECT OUR TOMATOES BY TASTE, NOT FEEL. Please ask for a free sample!" and have a sample plate out at all times with forks and cut tomatoes.

Educate! Educate! Educate!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by kimera

Does anyone know of a farm producing heirloom tomatoes on a commercial scale? If so, could you describe it? Varieties, where they market, how much they sell for, etc.?

Kimera, I know many folks who raise heirloom tomatoes for sale, and I mean fruits, not plants, which is what I think you mean.

I used to do it myself.

But I'm mot so sure I know exactly what it is you want to know. Each person doing so has to know their local market, whether it be a farmer's market, selling to chefs, or whatever, so choice of varieties can vary widely depending on the specific market being sold to.

Prices? These also vary widely depending on the specific market and the specific area.

Why don't you describe for us what you're thinking of doing, I assume in your own area, and what the level of experience with heirloom tomatoes is in your area and whether you plan to sell to chefs, at a Farmer's Market, or whatever.

I think it would be much easier for folks to contribute if they knew more about what your plans were and the specific situation.

And yes, there are large corporations, such as Melissa's in I think Los Angeles, who once contacted me about some heirloom tomato issues, but importers such as that subcontract out to growers to supply them with fruits which they then ship here and there.

I also once knew some folks who raise heirloom tomatoes for sale at the Green Market in NYC, and again, it's a matter of trial and error before finding what the buyers want and the buyers at the NYC Green Market are rather sophisticated when it comes to heirlooms of all kinds.

And even in my remote area of upstate NY there's a rather thriving community of farmers who sell tomato fruits, primarily at Farmer's Markets or their own roadside stands.

[kimera]

Those are all good questions.

Here's what I'm thinking:

I live on a 30 acre farm in North Florida. I've been playing around with growing heirlooms for a few years; exclusively for personal consumption. I've had mixed results with soil-based gardening. It is difficult to produce organic tomatoes where I live because of insect pests. It can be done, but it's very labor intensive. Recently, I've starting experimenting with hydroponic organic tomatoes. This seems to work much better.

It seems to me that there are ways to add value to tomatoes that would allow me to price them above the commodity tomatoes you see at most grocery stores. The biggest vulnerability of large-scale commercial producers is that their tomatoes are almost tasteless. People long for the rich taste of a vine-ripened heirloom tomato. I think I can add value to a tomato and differentiate it from the competition by doing these things: 1) making it taste good, 2) growing it organically, 3) using interesting-looking varieties, 4) making it available during the winter, and 5) telling interesting stories about the origins of a particular variety of the tomato, e.g., the mortgage lifter. Those things, in combination, should allow me to charge more for each tomato.

Ten years ago, people would have laughed at the notion that someone would pay $3.00 for a cup of coffee (more than it costs to buy a box of Cokes). Been to a Starbucks lately?

So, I'm interested in building a commercial hydroponic greenhouse that grows organic heirloom tomatoes. My plan is to start by selling them to restaurants and then expand to niche grocery stores.

Your thoughts?

[travis]

Kimera,

Would your operation fall under these regulations?
http://www.floridatomatoes.org/domestic.html

I don't know if your location is "within the production area" or if your plans include anything that otherwise falls under Florida code.

If so, your choice of varieties may be affected.

PV

[robbins]

My husband and I have a small commercial heirloom tomato operation here in Missouri. We grow about 5,000 plants a year and sell to our local Whole Foods, Wild Oats, chefs and farmers' markets. We also grow transplants for those stores and the farmers' markets. We are certified organic and possibly certifiably insane. We also grow about every possible vegetable in multiple varieties, many fruits and we grow orgnic seed. And, just to keep us busy, we raise cattle and horses.

I grow about 500 varieties of tomatoes each year and am continally trying new varieties. Rather than doing specific varieties for these markets we simply send the required number of pounds of #1 fruits each week. Anything that isn't best quality goes into sauces etc or to the chickens.

We use high tunnels to extend the season, but mostly do outside field production. I think our tomatoes taste wonderfully - that is why we grow them. The stores etc. love the varieties of colors and shapes. We also sell other veggies and herbs to the stores, but market almost all our fruits through our organic farmers' mkt.

We keep our prices fairly high, but reasonable. Our tomatoes at the farmers' mkt have been $4/lb for the last several years. Our wholesale price has been $3 to $3.50.

It's a stupidly labor intensive lifestyle for two getting older people, but we enjoy having summer interns and family around to help. Every year we say we are going to cut back, but then...................

Kimera - give it a shot. Be aware that you cannot sell anything as organic unless you are certified. With the new USDA laws there is a $10,000 fine for doing so. However, it is not such an awful process to get certified and many stores require it.

Hope this helps . Once upon a time I emailed Carolyn to ask what varieties would be good for commercial production and she was extremely helpful, so now hoping this might be helpful to you.

Robbins

[carolyn137]

Thanks for your input Robbins, the self admitted insane one.

Kimera, I see several problems and PaPa Vic has raised one of them and Robbins the other and I'm giving some others below.

One is the restricted varieties grown ( PaPa Viv) and to me the perhaps larger one of what is organic if you plan to try and grow organic hydroponic tomatoes.

I did some Googling early this AM and came up with some great info but the field is certainly very cloudy when it comes to hydroponics and organic and getting organic hydroponic certification, that's for sure. And getting certification is not an ASAP issue. I had a nice link but forgot to bring it over here from AOL, but will do so if you wish.

How much research have you done in this area of hydroponics and organic growing? Also, have you made contacts with local folks as to markets available to you?

Before I constructed a greenhouse for organic hydroponic growing I think I'd want to do a lot of background research.

Heirloom tomatoes demand a premium wherever they are sold, at least in my experience. And prices do vary widely depending on the area, the competitioon, and what you might be offering.

But a larger question that remains in my mind is how many heirloom varieties will do well with hydroponics, and that's also a very large question. Over the years I've seen some folks report success with some varieties and not with others, and no, I don't remember the specifics.

Organic growing doesn't mean just using organic methods for disease and insect control, it also means what's in the nutrient solutions used for organic growing. And while some are loosely suggesting manure teas and others special formulations, again, it comes down to certification if you're going to bill yourself as offering organic fruits, and again, that's a BIG question as well.

Perhaps before you start building your greenhouse it might be a good idea to still grow inground and practice using organic methods there. Again, at least in my part of the country it takes several years to ge certification, but in the meantime it would perhaps allow you to sell locally, and not saying they are organically grown and get a feel for demand vs production for different varieties.

[kimera]

I've got two greenhouses --10'x30' each-- and have been experimenting with a variety of heirlooms. So far, all of them have done great under a hydroponic feeding program. As I write this I've got at least a dozen varieties in some stage of production: Paul Robeson's, mortgage lifter, Reisentraub, Aker's West Virginia, Kellogg's breakfast, etc.

I have them in a combo NFT/top drip system. I start them in Perfect Start peat plugs in a flat and then move them to the hydro system when they're about 4" tall. I use water from my tilapia (fish) tanks and supplement with Earth Juice organic hydroponic nutrients. I use Grow juice in the vegetative phase, a combo of Grow and Bloom in the beginning flowering stages, and Bloom when they're more advanced. Every now and then I add a little Microblast to make sure they're not missing any trace elements, but truth be told, I've never seen any signs they need it.

I don't measure pH of total dissolved solids on an ongoing basis. TDS meters don't work well on organic nutrients, and the well water I use seems to have the correct pH. If the nutrient looks clear and odorless, I add a little more Earth Juice. Otherwise, I don't do anything but add fish waste water when it's low and change out the nutrients every two weeks.

I've done some research, and it's my understanding that you can get organic certification for hydroponic vegetables without waiting the three years required for field grown crops.

If someone can tell me how to post a picture, I'd be happy to post some pics of my set-up.

[feldon30]

You have to have your own website or an account on a photo hosting service like PhotoBucket.

Then you take the exact URL to your picture like:
http://www.feldoncentral.com/garden/...keepurple1.jpg

and wrap it with [img] and [/img] tags like:

[kimera]

This should give you a glimpse into the depths of my insanity.

Here are my two greenhouses (with sheds to the north). The sheds have galvanized sides that reflect sunshine into the greenhouses:



And here's an experimental organic heirloom tomato hydro unit:



Some recent flowers with young fruit:



My tilapia greenhouse with orchids (note the deep green of the plants that are fed entirely on fish waste water):



The fish in a 450 gal. tank:

[travis]

Kimera,

That's a really fabulous set-up.

If it were mine, I'd concentrate on growing open pollinated tomatoes for seed since you can guarantee seed purity without bagging if your greenhouses don't have natural pollinators flyin' around. Maybe you could contract to grow seeds for some of the seed houses lookin' for organic stock.

You could also sell a boatload of seedlings in the spring from your own seeds. This could be done special order via UPS as well as at your own location and farmers markets, etc.

I'm just thinkin' of ways to use smaller greenhouses rather than for fruit production which always has the risk of spoilage and shipping damage to cut into the profit line.

If I were in Northern Florida and wanted to get into fruit production, I'd probably look into more economically constructed, Quonsit-type (long, low hoop plastic tunnels) to run one early crop from seedlings and one late crop from clone cuttings. Here's some Web sites for tunnel tomato culture in Mississippi and North Florida.

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/ghtomato.html

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1828.htm

http://msucares.com/crops/comhort/greenhouse.html

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p2257.pdf

http://nfrec-sv.ifas.ufl.edu/greenhouse_rpts.htm

[George Sims]

Wow!!!

[Rena]

I SO WANT TO LIVE WITH YOU!!!
My partner (husband) would never be my partner in crime to do those kind of things I keep telling him when he gets Demented that I am so going to move us out to a FARM. sigh
FANTASTIC!!!
Edited to mention again we need to have a tomato get together for our REGION. I would be happy to host here. But would also travel.......

[kimera]

Thanks for the kind comments and helpful info. I'm pleased with the progress but I have a long way to go.

A little more info:

The pictures represent about five years of building and tinkering. The greenhouses have clear vinyl side panels that I put on in the winter. There are solar water heater panels that heat the fish tanks, and in turn they dissipate heat to the greenhouse.

I pop the vinyl panels off in the spring and there is stainless steel mesh that keeps insects out of the greenhouse. The cross-breeze coupled with a mister system keep plants sufficiently cool in the summer.

The next phase will be to build a much larger greenhouse and go into limited market production for local upscale restaurants. I am refining plans now and should have it built in about a year.

I'd read about aquaponics, but nothing had prepared me for the effectiveness of fish waste water as a plant nutrient. They love it. You can easily grow low-nutrient-demand plants like lettuce and basil with no supplements. Tomatoes require some supplements, but I use nothing other than fish water when I'm germinating tomato seedlings. They thrive and grow quickly.

Incidentally, most of the plants you see in that hydro unit were planted from seed on October 15th. I haven't found any variety of tomato that doesn't do well in the system. I have two hydro units and each holds 33 plants. I grow tomatoes on the outside rows where they can climb into the rafters. Lettuce is usally grown in the center row. I use a grow light, but could get by without it. If the greenhouse were in the middle of a field, I wouldn't use the light.

My next greenhouse will be built in about a year. It will be about 30'x60' and will be big enough for limited commercial production. I plan to sell to high-end local restaurants. It will have a number of hydro units, some fish tanks, some vertical hydro units against a 16' vertical rear wall, and a lot of passive solar features to lower --and should almost completely eliminate-- the heating bill in the winter.

I like the idea of producing seedlings rather than fruit for market. That sounds relatively easy, at least when compared to growing fruit and shipping it to market.

And finally, it's worth mentioning that tilapia are excellent to eat and easy to breed. Here's a closer pic of a breeding colony of tilapia (male is black, females orange):

[barkeater]

The biggest question I have is how do they taste? We get tons beautiful hydroponic tomatoes from Canadian greenhouses but they are tasteless.l

I would think using organic fertilizers, especially fish waste, would be different.