Bonnie Plants not as good as seed grown?

crazyoldgooseman · January 4, 2015

Over the past 4 or 5 years I've grown a few Heirloom varieties (Brandywine Pink, Cherokee Purple and Mortgage Lifter) first as Bonnie transplants. Then later I bought seed and they seemed to perform much better. The Bonnie plants looked good but just not much fruit set. I'm wondering if this is transplant shock because of the large size transplants.I know its a small sample size and I don't want to Bash Bonnie Plants I'm just wondering what others have seen. Thanks

ginger2778 · January 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyoldgooseman

Over the past 4 or 5 years I've grown a few Heirloom varieties (Brandywine Pink, Cherokee Purple and Mortgage Lifter) first as Bonnie transplants. Then later I bought seed and they seemed to perform much better. The Bonnie plants looked good but just not much fruit set. I'm wondering if this is transplant shock because of the large size transplants.I know its a small sample size and I don't want to Bash Bonnie Plants I'm just wondering what others have seen. Thanks

There's a little secret with Bonnie Plants. They give the plants growth inhibitors so they will stay a manageable size for the shelf. So you are taking home growth inhibited plants.... Just sayin.

Sun City Linda · January 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by ginger2778

There's a little secret with Bonnie Plants. They give the plants growth inhibitors so they will stay a manageable size for the shelf. So you are taking home growth inhibited plants.... Just sayin.

I have read that before and posted it before here and elsewhere. Really is unbelievable, isn't it?

heirloomtomaguy · January 5, 2015

Growth inhibitors are what make the plants those dark green stocky little plants some people try to replicate at home. They almost never grow as good as the ones you start from seed.

AlittleSalt · January 5, 2015

So that's why they look so odd...kind of like a mini shrub. Thanks guys.

ContainerTed · January 5, 2015

A handful of years ago, I watched the delivery truck from Bonnie Plants off loading tomato plants at the Lowes Store in Buford, GA. The foliage of the plants were full of little black specs with yellowing rings around the specs. I alerted the Lowes Garden department manager and the shipment was isolated. My problem with the whole scenario was the Bonnie employee had no idea what the little specs meant.

Two years ago, my brother bought some tomato plants at the local Co-op. They were also Bonnie plants. I finally told him I'd put a couple in the main garden. Within a few weeks, those plants were down with .... guess what ..... little specs with yellow circles on all the foliage. That quickly spread to other nearby plants despite my spraying with the best stuff I could find.-

In my opinion, Bonnie plants has expanded their customer base without taking care to prevent spreading diseases. Again, to be clear, this is my opinion based on my experiences. I have informed my brother that I will not plant any Bonnie plants ever again. BTW, my brother's plants all went down before mine did. He doesn't spray anything.

So, you want problems, pay heavily overpriced, disease infested plants that will bring you very little except heartbreak about all the wasted hard work. I only planted things started from seed in all the other years and have had no problems. Before last year's garden, I burned over the area I was planting just before having it tilled. As I didn't have any evidence of the "spec" problem, I feel I may have conquered the beast.

Again, this is just my opinion based on my experiences with what I think is an extremely poor, over-priced, disease infested garden plant provider.

Of course, your experiences may be different.

JamesL · January 5, 2015

+1 to everything that has been written.

I would not let a Bonnie's plant anywhere near my house. In fact I don't go in the garden centers in the Spring for fear of catching something. Lol
It is a shame that folks walk into a big box store and think they are getting quality plants as they are certainly charging premium prices.

Bears repeating once in a while:
If you can't / don't want to / start your own, ordering quality plant starts is going to be no more expensive than buying from Home Depot, Lowes or the local garden center..

Just a few of many better choices:

T'villes own Dar Jones
http://www.selectedplants.com

Chile Plants out of NJ
http://www.chileplants.com

Heck, I got the Harris seed catalog today and they are offering a 6 pack of grafted plants for 32 bucks.
They are also offering a full refund if the plants do not perform to "your high standard".
Not getting that at a box store....

Bristolgarden · January 5, 2015

No CT, unfortunately I fell into it last year. I bought a couple pepper plants that I happened across at HD at the last minute. I planted them with my other peppers I had started from seed. A couple days later the purchased plants developed spots and started wilting. Within a week it had spread through all my peppers and I ended up loosing all 22 pepper plants. I have never had pepper disease problems before. No more plants from the store again in my garden. Yes they were Bonnie.

ginger2778 · January 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun City Linda

I have read that before and posted it before here and elsewhere. Really is unbelievable, isn't it?

I know! It's appalling, isn't it?

Cole_Robbie · January 5, 2015

I sell plants every spring at the farmer's market. Last spring we had a late freeze and my greenhouse heater quit, so my seedlings that were intended for the high tunnel froze. I actually had to buy plants. As someone with a greenhouse who raises a couple thousand or so seedlings every spring, that was embarrassing. It's like owning a taxi cab company and having to call one of your friends and ask for a ride.

I bought a flat of Big Beef for $12 from another of the market vendors, a family who has been there all of the 35 years that my family has been going. And those plants grew and produced like crazy.

The reason I bought my plants from that family is that I knew they were taking their own garden's seedlings from the same plants they were selling. They had every incentive to have a high quality product, because they were using that product in their own farming. I do the same thing. And I also knew they had a huge crop of tomatoes every year.

Those are the best plants you're ever going to buy - the ones coming from someone who is going to plant them in his or her own garden if you don't buy them.

Fusion_power · January 5, 2015

Most greenhouse plant growers use overhead watering on their plants. At some point, bright sunshine hits drops of water on the leaves. The drops of water act like magnifying lenses focusing the sun on the leaves and burning small holes causing dead black spots on the leaves. The humid environment is also an invitation to several fungal and bacterial diseases. The worst and most difficult to control are septoria and bacterial spot.

I do not know what large commercial growers spray their plants with. Each year, my greenhouse inspector asks to see what chemicals I use. Each year I tell him that I didn't use any this year because I did not have an outbreak. I credit this with using in-tray watering which eliminates the water sprayed on the leaves paradigm. This does not mean it can't happen to me, but it does reduce the risk substantially.

In my personal garden, I have severe septoria every year. This is usually in July, two months after I stop selling plants out of the greenhouse. I use the disease outbreak as an opportunity to select varieties that are tolerant. So far, I've only found S. Habrochaites LA2175 (highly tolerant) and S. Pimpinillifolium LA0417 (a single plant that was moderately tolerant), but I have found several dozen standard varieties such as Burgundy Traveler and Eva Purple Ball that have low level tolerance.

Growing thick chunky seedlings is relatively easy. One important factor is daily stimulation of the plants. An easy way to do this is with a broom handle brushed both ways across the tops of the plants, but be aware that this can cause bruises on the leaves that can lead to problems later so be gentle. There are disadvantages to using a fan, primarily that it encourages rapid evaporation from the plants which slows growth. What I do most is pick up the trays as I am watering, shaking the tray back and forth a couple of times which seems to satisfy the plants needs to be touched. Yes, I do talk to my plants, it helps me avoid going stir crazy and the plants either don't object or else actually enjoy the sound of my voice. I tried playing music for them a few times. They liked rock, but found country too depressing.

"Thigmatropy is the name for an effect where plants alter their growth habits as a result of being touched. It was first noticed in greenhouses where plants next to the aisles were found to grow sturdier and healthier. The cause was workers walking down the aisle brushing against the plants. You can stimulate thigmatropy by rubbing your hands or a stick across the tops of the plants a couple of times a day."

Temperature is important because plants grow longer cells and elongate stems faster above 70 F. Drop the temperature down to 65F and voila, they grow at just the right rate. However, this is not the entire story. Plants benefit from temperature fluctuations with a daily routine down to about 55 and up to about 85 providing the optimum conditions. So work on growing solanum seedlings at an average of about 65 degrees and you will get slower growing stockier seedlings.

How much space each seedling is given to grow is the last important factor. A tomato plant needs approximately 5 square inches of space for the first 8 weeks of growth. The plant should reach 10 inches tall for most indeterminate or determinate varieties. Dwarf varieties will be about 6 inches tall. At that point, the plant has to be given more space to expand leaves. From 8 weeks to 12 weeks, at least 20 square inches is needed. This requires a 5 inch round cup. (.866*25 = 21.65 sq inches). During this 4 weeks, the plant should reach 18 inches tall. I recommend potting up seedlings at 6 weeks because it prevents the plant getting root-bound.

Here are the gotchas and tips to outperform Bonnie plants by 50%.

It is critical that the plant not get root-bound during early growth. If you leave it in a small container too long, it will trigger development of flower initials and the plant will transition from the early rapid growth phase into the mature reproductive phase too soon. This can reduce the fruiting potential of the plant by up to 50% so DON'T let them get root-bound!

Avoid setting out plants that already have blooms or small fruit. A plant that has switched to reproductive phase will not normally reach maximum productive potential. The objective is to grow a seedling and set it out so that it can go through the juvenile growth phase before setting any fruit. A healthy plant should be nearly 2 feet tall and spread over 1 foot across before it flowers and fruits. Getting a plant successfully through this juvenile growth phase is crucial to overall production.

Bonnie uses high nitrogen fertilizer on their plants to get that deep blue/green color. This stresses the seedlings and puts them out of sync with their natural growth cycle. The healthiest plant to put into the ground won't be blue/green from over fertilization. It should be green to dark green depending on variety. I encourage use of a fertilizer in the range of 18-18-21 to grow seedlings through 8 weeks old. You can use general purpose fertilizer of 15-30-15 but be aware that it is easy to get the plants out of balance with this formula. It takes 1/4 teaspoon of fertilizer to grow 48 seedlings to the 8 inches tall stage. I also have used organic fertilizers when requested. Do NOT over-fertilize!

Deliberately don't water your seedlings at least one time between 4 weeks and 6 weeks old. This stresses the seedling which triggers a tropism to produce more and longer roots in an attempt to get more water. The plants should get dry enough that they begin to wilt. Don't let them go too far, just enough that the top of the plant starts to lean over, then water them well and let them recover. I do this to my seedlings twice which produces the maximum effect on the root system. The root growth effect continues over the life of the plant, it will always have a larger root system than a plant grown without the stress from lack of water. There is one caveat though, doing this to a plant slows growth down by about 10 days. This is probably why Bonnie does not restrict water to their seedlings, they are moving as many seedlings as possible which means they don't have time to lose 10 days growth. Did I mention that this trick can increase fruiting potential by up to 50%?

The last tip I'll give is that tomato plants benefit from brief periods of time below 45 degrees during early growth. If you dig around online you can find some studies that show cold treated tomato plants outproduce seedlings that have been kept warm. It is important to avoid letting them get below 35 degrees even for a brief period. Also, the plant needs several days at high temps to recover from just one night below 45. So use this one with caution, but in the hands of a master, it will give another increase in production potential.

Worth1 · January 6, 2015

I grow beautiful plants from seed that will put any store bought plant to shame and many people here have seen them.
Not bragging just saying it can and is done all the time.

Worth

heirloomtomaguy · January 6, 2015

Nice tips Fusion. Thanks for the info.

crazyoldgooseman · January 6, 2015

Nice information. Thanks for all your input. This year I've got all the seed I need for my 2015 plants. I kinda do the cold treatment thing because the room where I keep my plant does not get as much heat from the pellet stove. I only plant about 30 plants but I start about 2 (72 cell?) trays and give a lot away to friends, neighbors and coworkers. Thanks again for all the knowledge here.

kurt · January 6, 2015

I talked to a Bonnie Plants truck driver and asked him about the plants he stocked at our local Home depot.I told him that his products really do not last and are pest ridden from the get go.In his defense he stated the problem starts after he delivers the plants.Meaning the Home Depot stacked shelving storage system and massive early hose watering by employees justs spreads the crud from dirty storage racks when new material is brought in.I do not work or buy Bonnie Plants but I can see his point.He showed me the inside of his truck and it was clean(almost sterile).He says the greenhouses are as neat and tidy sterile as possible.The Home Depot down here uses stacked porous concrete block and some wet lumber as a shelving system.The driver says Bonnie Plants has advised the Home Depot management of thier practices but as you can see they are just selling plants and really don't care I guess.

January 4, 2015	#1
crazyoldgooseman Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Southern Maryland 7a Posts: 200	Bonnie Plants not as good as seed grown? Over the past 4 or 5 years I've grown a few Heirloom varieties (Brandywine Pink, Cherokee Purple and Mortgage Lifter) first as Bonnie transplants. Then later I bought seed and they seemed to perform much better. The Bonnie plants looked good but just not much fruit set. I'm wondering if this is transplant shock because of the large size transplants.I know its a small sample size and I don't want to Bash Bonnie Plants I'm just wondering what others have seen. Thanks __________________ Anybody see where I sat my beer? -crazyoldgooseman

January 5, 2015	#4
heirloomtomaguy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: glendora ca Posts: 2,560	Growth inhibitors are what make the plants those dark green stocky little plants some people try to replicate at home. They almost never grow as good as the ones you start from seed. __________________ “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

January 5, 2015	#6
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	A handful of years ago, I watched the delivery truck from Bonnie Plants off loading tomato plants at the Lowes Store in Buford, GA. The foliage of the plants were full of little black specs with yellowing rings around the specs. I alerted the Lowes Garden department manager and the shipment was isolated. My problem with the whole scenario was the Bonnie employee had no idea what the little specs meant. Two years ago, my brother bought some tomato plants at the local Co-op. They were also Bonnie plants. I finally told him I'd put a couple in the main garden. Within a few weeks, those plants were down with .... guess what ..... little specs with yellow circles on all the foliage. That quickly spread to other nearby plants despite my spraying with the best stuff I could find.- In my opinion, Bonnie plants has expanded their customer base without taking care to prevent spreading diseases. Again, to be clear, this is my opinion based on my experiences. I have informed my brother that I will not plant any Bonnie plants ever again. BTW, my brother's plants all went down before mine did. He doesn't spray anything. So, you want problems, pay heavily overpriced, disease infested plants that will bring you very little except heartbreak about all the wasted hard work. I only planted things started from seed in all the other years and have had no problems. Before last year's garden, I burned over the area I was planting just before having it tilled. As I didn't have any evidence of the "spec" problem, I feel I may have conquered the beast. Again, this is just my opinion based on my experiences with what I think is an extremely poor, over-priced, disease infested garden plant provider. Of course, your experiences may be different. __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch

January 6, 2015	#13
heirloomtomaguy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: glendora ca Posts: 2,560	Nice tips Fusion. Thanks for the info. __________________ “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

January 6, 2015	#14
crazyoldgooseman Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Southern Maryland 7a Posts: 200	Nice information. Thanks for all your input. This year I've got all the seed I need for my 2015 plants. I kinda do the cold treatment thing because the room where I keep my plant does not get as much heat from the pellet stove. I only plant about 30 plants but I start about 2 (72 cell?) trays and give a lot away to friends, neighbors and coworkers. Thanks again for all the knowledge here. __________________ Anybody see where I sat my beer? -crazyoldgooseman

January 5, 2015	#5
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	So that's why they look so odd...kind of like a mini shrub. Thanks guys.

January 5, 2015	#7
JamesL Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 1,992	+1 to everything that has been written. I would not let a Bonnie's plant anywhere near my house. In fact I don't go in the garden centers in the Spring for fear of catching something. Lol It is a shame that folks walk into a big box store and think they are getting quality plants as they are certainly charging premium prices. Bears repeating once in a while: If you can't / don't want to / start your own, ordering quality plant starts is going to be no more expensive than buying from Home Depot, Lowes or the local garden center.. Just a few of many better choices: T'villes own Dar Jones http://www.selectedplants.com Chile Plants out of NJ http://www.chileplants.com Heck, I got the Harris seed catalog today and they are offering a 6 pack of grafted plants for 32 bucks. They are also offering a full refund if the plants do not perform to "your high standard". Not getting that at a box store....

January 5, 2015	#8
Bristolgarden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2014 Location: Northern,In Posts: 12	No CT, unfortunately I fell into it last year. I bought a couple pepper plants that I happened across at HD at the last minute. I planted them with my other peppers I had started from seed. A couple days later the purchased plants developed spots and started wilting. Within a week it had spread through all my peppers and I ended up loosing all 22 pepper plants. I have never had pepper disease problems before. No more plants from the store again in my garden. Yes they were Bonnie.

January 5, 2015	#10
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	I sell plants every spring at the farmer's market. Last spring we had a late freeze and my greenhouse heater quit, so my seedlings that were intended for the high tunnel froze. I actually had to buy plants. As someone with a greenhouse who raises a couple thousand or so seedlings every spring, that was embarrassing. It's like owning a taxi cab company and having to call one of your friends and ask for a ride. I bought a flat of Big Beef for $12 from another of the market vendors, a family who has been there all of the 35 years that my family has been going. And those plants grew and produced like crazy. The reason I bought my plants from that family is that I knew they were taking their own garden's seedlings from the same plants they were selling. They had every incentive to have a high quality product, because they were using that product in their own farming. I do the same thing. And I also knew they had a huge crop of tomatoes every year. Those are the best plants you're ever going to buy - the ones coming from someone who is going to plant them in his or her own garden if you don't buy them.

January 5, 2015	#11
Fusion_power Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,251	Most greenhouse plant growers use overhead watering on their plants. At some point, bright sunshine hits drops of water on the leaves. The drops of water act like magnifying lenses focusing the sun on the leaves and burning small holes causing dead black spots on the leaves. The humid environment is also an invitation to several fungal and bacterial diseases. The worst and most difficult to control are septoria and bacterial spot. I do not know what large commercial growers spray their plants with. Each year, my greenhouse inspector asks to see what chemicals I use. Each year I tell him that I didn't use any this year because I did not have an outbreak. I credit this with using in-tray watering which eliminates the water sprayed on the leaves paradigm. This does not mean it can't happen to me, but it does reduce the risk substantially. In my personal garden, I have severe septoria every year. This is usually in July, two months after I stop selling plants out of the greenhouse. I use the disease outbreak as an opportunity to select varieties that are tolerant. So far, I've only found S. Habrochaites LA2175 (highly tolerant) and S. Pimpinillifolium LA0417 (a single plant that was moderately tolerant), but I have found several dozen standard varieties such as Burgundy Traveler and Eva Purple Ball that have low level tolerance. Growing thick chunky seedlings is relatively easy. One important factor is daily stimulation of the plants. An easy way to do this is with a broom handle brushed both ways across the tops of the plants, but be aware that this can cause bruises on the leaves that can lead to problems later so be gentle. There are disadvantages to using a fan, primarily that it encourages rapid evaporation from the plants which slows growth. What I do most is pick up the trays as I am watering, shaking the tray back and forth a couple of times which seems to satisfy the plants needs to be touched. Yes, I do talk to my plants, it helps me avoid going stir crazy and the plants either don't object or else actually enjoy the sound of my voice. I tried playing music for them a few times. They liked rock, but found country too depressing. "Thigmatropy is the name for an effect where plants alter their growth habits as a result of being touched. It was first noticed in greenhouses where plants next to the aisles were found to grow sturdier and healthier. The cause was workers walking down the aisle brushing against the plants. You can stimulate thigmatropy by rubbing your hands or a stick across the tops of the plants a couple of times a day." Temperature is important because plants grow longer cells and elongate stems faster above 70 F. Drop the temperature down to 65F and voila, they grow at just the right rate. However, this is not the entire story. Plants benefit from temperature fluctuations with a daily routine down to about 55 and up to about 85 providing the optimum conditions. So work on growing solanum seedlings at an average of about 65 degrees and you will get slower growing stockier seedlings. How much space each seedling is given to grow is the last important factor. A tomato plant needs approximately 5 square inches of space for the first 8 weeks of growth. The plant should reach 10 inches tall for most indeterminate or determinate varieties. Dwarf varieties will be about 6 inches tall. At that point, the plant has to be given more space to expand leaves. From 8 weeks to 12 weeks, at least 20 square inches is needed. This requires a 5 inch round cup. (.866*25 = 21.65 sq inches). During this 4 weeks, the plant should reach 18 inches tall. I recommend potting up seedlings at 6 weeks because it prevents the plant getting root-bound. Here are the gotchas and tips to outperform Bonnie plants by 50%. It is critical that the plant not get root-bound during early growth. If you leave it in a small container too long, it will trigger development of flower initials and the plant will transition from the early rapid growth phase into the mature reproductive phase too soon. This can reduce the fruiting potential of the plant by up to 50% so DON'T let them get root-bound! Avoid setting out plants that already have blooms or small fruit. A plant that has switched to reproductive phase will not normally reach maximum productive potential. The objective is to grow a seedling and set it out so that it can go through the juvenile growth phase before setting any fruit. A healthy plant should be nearly 2 feet tall and spread over 1 foot across before it flowers and fruits. Getting a plant successfully through this juvenile growth phase is crucial to overall production. Bonnie uses high nitrogen fertilizer on their plants to get that deep blue/green color. This stresses the seedlings and puts them out of sync with their natural growth cycle. The healthiest plant to put into the ground won't be blue/green from over fertilization. It should be green to dark green depending on variety. I encourage use of a fertilizer in the range of 18-18-21 to grow seedlings through 8 weeks old. You can use general purpose fertilizer of 15-30-15 but be aware that it is easy to get the plants out of balance with this formula. It takes 1/4 teaspoon of fertilizer to grow 48 seedlings to the 8 inches tall stage. I also have used organic fertilizers when requested. Do NOT over-fertilize! Deliberately don't water your seedlings at least one time between 4 weeks and 6 weeks old. This stresses the seedling which triggers a tropism to produce more and longer roots in an attempt to get more water. The plants should get dry enough that they begin to wilt. Don't let them go too far, just enough that the top of the plant starts to lean over, then water them well and let them recover. I do this to my seedlings twice which produces the maximum effect on the root system. The root growth effect continues over the life of the plant, it will always have a larger root system than a plant grown without the stress from lack of water. There is one caveat though, doing this to a plant slows growth down by about 10 days. This is probably why Bonnie does not restrict water to their seedlings, they are moving as many seedlings as possible which means they don't have time to lose 10 days growth. Did I mention that this trick can increase fruiting potential by up to 50%? The last tip I'll give is that tomato plants benefit from brief periods of time below 45 degrees during early growth. If you dig around online you can find some studies that show cold treated tomato plants outproduce seedlings that have been kept warm. It is important to avoid letting them get below 35 degrees even for a brief period. Also, the plant needs several days at high temps to recover from just one night below 45. So use this one with caution, but in the hands of a master, it will give another increase in production potential.

January 6, 2015	#12
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	I grow beautiful plants from seed that will put any store bought plant to shame and many people here have seen them. Not bragging just saying it can and is done all the time. Worth

January 6, 2015	#15
kurt Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Homestead,Everglades City Fl. Posts: 2,501	I talked to a Bonnie Plants truck driver and asked him about the plants he stocked at our local Home depot.I told him that his products really do not last and are pest ridden from the get go.In his defense he stated the problem starts after he delivers the plants.Meaning the Home Depot stacked shelving storage system and massive early hose watering by employees justs spreads the crud from dirty storage racks when new material is brought in.I do not work or buy Bonnie Plants but I can see his point.He showed me the inside of his truck and it was clean(almost sterile).He says the greenhouses are as neat and tidy sterile as possible.The Home Depot down here uses stacked porous concrete block and some wet lumber as a shelving system.The driver says Bonnie Plants has advised the Home Depot management of thier practices but as you can see they are just selling plants and really don't care I guess. __________________ KURT