Cherokee Tomato

[frdlturner]

I am interested in growing Cherokee Tomatoes and I am wondering on how many types of Cherokee Tomatoes are there. I want to get as many as I can to grow and compare flavors. Thanks

[kath]

Tania lists 14 on her website:

http://tatianastomatobase.com/w/inde...ty_List&from=C

[travis]

While Kath's reply provides a link to a relatively helpful Web page, the "Cherokee" tomatoes listed there are not a complete listing, and a couple of the descriptions given are incomplete or duplicative.

The cultivar known as Cherokee is the same as the variety sometimes referred to as "Cherokee Red." Look at the description for Cherokee, and you will get most of the info on that variety. It was developed at North Carolina State University (NCSU) as a determinate, large, red, round tomato, and used as one parent in the old standard Mountain Pride hybrid tomato.

You may see "Cherokee Red Potato Leaf" also listed, but with no information given. I've never really seen this variety discussed anywhere, and have doubts as to its relationship to either Cherokee Purple or the Cherokee (Red) from NCSU.

Now as to the "Cherokee" tomatoes commonly thought of as heirloom types, they begin with Cherokee Purple, which soon threw a mutation or outcross known as Cherokee Chocolate which in turn threw a mutation or segregation now called Cherokee Green, which in turn reportedly is the direct source line for Golden Cherokee, a yellow/red bicolor (which sort of defies the accepted thinking that green when ripe genetics is homozygous stable for a green fleshed tomato).

Subsequent to the appearance of Golden Cherokee, seeds from one of its fruit threw three new types: one called Cherokee Lemon (pure yellow flesh with clear epidermis), which the next year threw both the pure yellow type and yet another green when ripe line now called Cherokee Lime (pure green when ripe with clear epidermis), and the third type being a lumpy, red fleshed, yellow epidermis, potato leaf segregate with no name, and which remains undistributed.

Now back to Cherokee Purple, Potato Leaf. Yes, as stated at Tatiana's Tomatobase, one type was found by Gere Gettle in his garden in Missouri; but the other type mentioned at Tomatobase was found in a home garden in Ohio at about the same time (1995), and given by the Ohio gardener to Bill Malin who named it Spudakee.

Those two Cherokee Purple, Potato Leaf types are two completely separate discoveries, and the Spudakee line from Malin went on to be widely distributed and generally well liked for it's early maturity, great production, and remarkable vine health and heat tolerance. On the other hand, Gettle marketed his Missouri find through his seed sales company, and unfortunately, about 5 or 6 years ago, something happened at one of his contract seed grower's garden which resulted in orange pear shaped and plum shaped fruit rather than the beautiful, large, purple beefsteak standard for Cherokee Purple. I have not seen or heard about the Missouri type since then.

The Cherokee Tiger types listed at Tomatobase are just a sampling of the dozens of lines, some stable and some wildly unstable at this time, resulting from a cross of Tigerette (dwarf with chartreuse, rugose foliage) x Cherokee Purple. Due to the complicated genetics of Tigerette, many of the resulting filial generations from that cross continue to segregate and recombine in a profusion of fruit shapes, flesh colors, skin stripes, skin tones, dwarf, indeterminate, determinate, and long vine types ... some of which are available and many of which remain unavailable or abandoned altogether.

[feldon30]

The great thing about Tania's site is, it's a Wiki, which means that corrections can be submitted with an explanation why.

[daninpd]

Okay, I've been planning my 2015 garden and had planned to dedicate the front row to Cherokee Purple and progeny-descendants, sports, mutations, whatever.

I grow my tomatoes in rows of 5. I had CP as front and center then CC then CG and then Golden Cherokee with one spot left in the front row. Received seeds for Cherokee Lime Stripes in a trade recently- would that be the appropriate variety to complete the row to show the proper progression of the timeline and popularity of Cherokee Purple and the genetic diversity this line has produced?

[travis]

"Cherokee Lime Stripes" is an obvious outcross from Cherokee Lime. There are two other steps between Golden Cherokee and Cherokee Lime Stripes, those being Cherokee Lemon and Cherokee Lime.

[ginger2778]

Cherokee Lime is available in my seed for SASE offer, and a photo is up of it. It is my new favorite GWR.

[peppero]

Originally Posted by travis

While Kath's reply provides a link to a relatively helpful Web page, the "Cherokee" tomatoes listed there are not a complete listing, and a couple of the descriptions given are incomplete or duplicative.

The cultivar known as Cherokee is the same as the variety sometimes referred to as "Cherokee Red." Look at the description for Cherokee, and you will get most of the info on that variety. It was developed at North Carolina State University (NCSU) as a determinate, large, red, round tomato, and used as one parent in the old standard Mountain Pride hybrid tomato.

You may see "Cherokee Red Potato Leaf" also listed, but with no information given. I've never really seen this variety discussed anywhere, and have doubts as to its relationship to either Cherokee Purple or the Cherokee (Red) from NCSU.

Now as to the "Cherokee" tomatoes commonly thought of as heirloom types, they begin with Cherokee Purple, which soon threw a mutation or outcross known as Cherokee Chocolate which in turn threw a mutation or segregation now called Cherokee Green, which in turn reportedly is the direct source line for Golden Cherokee, a yellow/red bicolor (which sort of defies the accepted thinking that green when ripe genetics is homozygous stable for a green fleshed tomato).

Subsequent to the appearance of Golden Cherokee, seeds from one of its fruit threw three new types: one called Cherokee Lemon (pure yellow flesh with clear epidermis), which the next year threw both the pure yellow type and yet another green when ripe line now called Cherokee Lime (pure green when ripe with clear epidermis), and the third type being a lumpy, red fleshed, yellow epidermis, potato leaf segregate with no name, and which remains undistributed.

Now back to Cherokee Purple, Potato Leaf. Yes, as stated at Tatiana's Tomatobase, one type was found by Gere Gettle in his garden in Missouri; but the other type mentioned at Tomatobase was found in a home garden in Ohio at about the same time (1995), and given by the Ohio gardener to Bill Malin who named it Spudakee.

Those two Cherokee Purple, Potato Leaf types are two completely separate discoveries, and the Spudakee line from Malin went on to be widely distributed and generally well liked for it's early maturity, great production, and remarkable vine health and heat tolerance. On the other hand, Gettle marketed his Missouri find through his seed sales company, and unfortunately, about 5 or 6 years ago, something happened at one of his contract seed grower's garden which resulted in orange pear shaped and plum shaped fruit rather than the beautiful, large, purple beefsteak standard for Cherokee Purple. I have not seen or heard about the Missouri type since then.

The Cherokee Tiger types listed at Tomatobase are just a sampling of the dozens of lines, some stable and some wildly unstable at this time, resulting from a cross of Tigerette (dwarf with chartreuse, rugose foliage) x Cherokee Purple. Due to the complicated genetics of Tigerette, many of the resulting filial generations from that cross continue to segregate and recombine in a profusion of fruit shapes, flesh colors, skin stripes, skin tones, dwarf, indeterminate, determinate, and long vine types ... some of which are available and many of which remain unavailable or abandoned altogether.

Thanks for the history.

jon

[Salsacharley]

I would appreciate someone explaining the difference between Cherokee Green and Cherokee Lime.

Thanks.
Charley

[travis]

Originally Posted by Salsacharley

I would appreciate someone explaining the difference between Cherokee Green and Cherokee Lime.

Thanks.
Charley

Cherokee Green is a direct mutation or segregate from Cherokee Chocolate. The "mutation" or recombination of genes from "chocolate" to "green-when-ripe" is a change of red flesh to yellow flesh. The retained chlorophyll in both lines stain the red flesh to create a darker tone in Cherokee Chocolate, while the retained chlorophyll in Cherokee Green completely masks the pale yellow flesh, creating a completely green flesh appearance.

Like Cherokee Chocolate, the Cherokee Green has yellow epidermis (skin), so that when the flesh of Cherokee Green becomes completely full ripe, the blossom end of the tomato takes on an amber appearance. In Cherokee Chocolate, this yellow epidermis causes an exterior hue at full ripe that is more brown than that of Cherokee Purple.

Now as to Cherokee Lime ...

Since Cherokee Lemon arose from Golden Cherokee, it recombined with pale yellow flesh and without the interior red streaking (bicolor), and the "mutation" or recombination of genes included a clear epidermis, rather than the yellow epidermis of Golden Cherokee. (You may now understand why I believe all these skin and flesh color changes are the result of outcrossing rather than true mutations, in that the skin colors and flesh colors keep flip flopping between dominant and recessive, beginning with Cherokee Purple and running completely down the series. But that is subject of another thread, and one I don't wish to start or participate in.)

Anyway, Cherokee Lemon has yellow flesh and clear epidermis, a combination sometimes called "pure yellow."

Cherokee Lime is a direct recombination of Cherokee Lemon with the only visible change being the return of "gf" green-when-ripe flesh with the retained chlorophyll staining completely masking the pale yellow flesh. Since the skin is clear, rather than yellow, the amber blush at full ripe is absent in Cherokee Lime, and the appearance of the tomato is more like Capt. Lucky, although usually without the same degree of interior red streaking of the flesh.

So, bottom line: Cherokee Green has yellow epidermis, while Cherokee Lime has a clear epidermis.

Obviously, there are other far less obvious genetic differences between the two lines, caused by apparent outcrossing along the way through the series, but those genetic differences probably will remain obscure to most gardeners.

[Dutch]

Thank you Travis, your post was, well written, crystal clear and quite helpful, where a layperson tomato breeder like myself can understand. Thanks again!

Dutch

[Salsacharley]

Thanks Travis. I didn't realize you would have to type so much to explain the CG vs CL differences, but I do appreciate it.

Charley

[Sun City Linda]

Do all these variants of skin color from Cherokee Purple , or Cherokee Chocolate taste similar or different? I have read there is virtually no difference in taste between CP and Chocolate but have not confirmed that myself.

[frdlturner]

thank you everyone for the info

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Sun City Linda

Do all these variants of skin color from Cherokee Purple , or Cherokee Chocolate taste similar or different? I have read there is virtually no difference in taste between CP and Chocolate but have not confirmed that myself.

I can't speak to all the variants but I can speak to Cherokee Purple and Cherokee Chocolate since I've grown both a couple of times in the same season and also in different seasons, seeds initially from Craig LeHoullier. And back then for my SSE listings.

He sent me seeds for CP around 1990 or so after growning out seeds that John Green had sent him and the CC appeared in about 1995 and he sent me seeds for that one as well.

I found no difference at all with taste between CP( clear epi) and CC (yellow epi)

Carolyn