Tomato Seedling Problems

[NArnold]

Hello everyone,
I am a new member and I am having problems with my baby tomatoes. My tomatoes are about a month old now and they look terrible. Lots of curled up leaves with purple on the underside. I have one plant that has yellow blotches on its lower leaves.

I have read that purple underside can be caused by phosphorus deficiency, so I added a weak solution of MG to a couple of the plants. That was about a week ago. It didnt seem to help.

I read that if the soil was too wet the leaves could curl so I let the plants dry out. This did not seem to do anything.

I read that cool temps can cause the rolled up leaves and purple color. I just raised the temp in my house to 72 degrees during the day and 65 degrees at night. Maybe this is too cold of a night time temp. It can get way below 65 degrees here(Nebraska) in the spring.

I have read lots about this issue and I had the same problem last year. I wanted to post some real pics to see what you guys think.

I am using a potting mix with no fertilizer for the soil.

I have 8 t5 bulbs about 1 ft above the plants.

I thought last year maybe I had old seeds so I ordered some from burpee this year.

Oh I guess I need to find a Image hosting site.
I will be back with the photos.

Thanks
Nick

[NArnold]

How do u guys share photos, I just signed up for photobucket but the link does not appear to work. Can't we upload videos from our computers?

[NArnold]

Ok maybe this will work, here are the pictures.
Let me know if anything stands out to you guys.
Thanks
Nick

IMG_0476.jpg
IMG_0488.jpg
IMG_0477.jpg
IMG_0479.jpg
IMG_0483.jpg
IMG_0484.jpg
IMG_0485.jpg
IMG_0486.jpg
IMG_0487.jpg
IMG_0489.jpg

[bower]

Nick, If the potting mix is a soil-less mix with no fertilizer, I think starvation would explain the condition you described in month-old seedlings, especially if the container size is small. I've seen this sort of extreme in seedlings that got left in cell pack too long, pot bound and lacking the necessaries. Bone meal is a source of phosphorus; fish emulsion (diluted) contains N and P, but besides feeding I would recommend potting them up into 4" pot or a beer cup if they are in anything smaller. I have seen seedlings kept in cell pack until transplant (6-8 weeks) and they looked like hell, more or less as you described, even though they were fed liquid fish ferts.

Another possible cause, if your water is low pH or has high levels of some minerals, acidification or buildup of salts in small pots by watering can interfere with normal plant nutrition and affect leaf colour. If so, potting up into a larger soil volume would help...and maybe collect some rainwater or snow water for your plants instead, to reduce mineral buildup. Supplying some basic nutrients is still a good idea, unless your potting mix contains real soil or compost.

Your day/night temperatures of 72/65 would for sure not cause phosphorus deficiency in tomatoes afaik... at least, I've never grown any varieties that sensitive. A little purple is okay and a little cold stress is okay, eg nights of 55 F for a young seedling and days at 65 - 70 F are fine, as it conditions the seedlings for the outdoor stress they will face later on. It is also okay to coddle your seedlings with no stress - there is no cold stress at all when nights are above 60 F and days above 70F.

BTW I would not expect the old purpled leaves to change back to a normal colour..regardless of the cause. But if the problem is solved, you should see new leaves come on that are healthy and green.

Good luck.

[Cole_Robbie]

Try a different grow media. A lot of potting mixes can get mucky. If there's not enough aeration in the root area, you don't grow good roots, and that problem exhibits itself as a nutrient deficiency.

I use a peat-based "pro mix" for plants and vermiculite for seeds.

[RayR]

It's not temperature.
What Is your seed starting mix?
I would guess since they are a month old and you just started fertilizing a few one week ago that the problem is likely lack of nutrition.

[NArnold]

I think the mix is a peat based mix. I used it in my self watering containers last year and it seemed to work. This is frustrating trying to post since I am a new member. I think this is my 3 reply but none of them have shown up. We will see if this one does.
Thanks
Nick

[NArnold]

IMG_0484.jpg

[NArnold]

Looks like I can post now here are some pics.
IMG_0477.jpgIMG_0484.jpgIMG_0479.jpgIMG_0483.jpgIMG_0485.jpgIMG_0486.jpgIMG_0487.jpgIMG_0488.jpgIMG_0489.jpg

Thanks Everyone

[bower]

The purple doesn't look too serious, but the wilting is the key... I think Cole Robbie is on the right track, that it is a problem with root aeration or drainage. The containers are large enough, but the contact between the bottom of the container and the lid below it is not a good thing in my experience... no matter how good your drainage holes are.

Also this type of setup, where the pot is in flat contact with the draining dish below, is exactly the situation where I found trouble with fungus gnats on my pepper plants... and when those start chewing on the roots, the plants will wilt for sure.
To check for gnat trouble, pour a little water near the stem and watch with a hand lens (or your glasses on) for any little white things hopping up where you watered...

Either way, I would try to do something about the drainage. If you put some pebbles or coarse gravel into a larger tray, you could set the containers on top of that and water them thoroughly and make sure they drain completely... if the water isn't running freely out, you need to make some bigger drainage holes - and you can make some extra holes in the sides of the container too.. I'm not sure what else is the best approach to aerate soil, no doubt someone else will have a better idea.

I let my seedlings get pretty dry between waterings, because it's cold, they are better off with less water than to be left with cold wet feet. The bottom of the 1020 trays is groovy enough for them to drain completely.

Welcome to T'ville, BTW.

[NArnold]

Thanks,
I just got back from a soccer game.
I just took a few pictures from a single plant. There are yellow blotches starting to form on the leaves. I am going to try the water thing with the magnify glass.
I stuck my finger almost to the bottom of this container and did not feel much moisture. Should it be bone dry?
This soil mix is what I use for my self watering containers and it is pretty damp when I use them.
Here are a few more pictures.
Thanks
IMG_0489.jpgIMG_0490.jpgIMG_0491.jpgIMG_0492.jpgIMG_0493.jpg

[rwsacto]

How are you watering and draining the containers? Many (including me) bottom water by setting the container with bottom drain holes in a shallow tray of water with dilute fertilizer. Then position them so air can get to the roots through the drain holes.

I ask because I cannot see how your containers drain in your photos.

Rick

[Ed of Somis]

I agree with cole. For a long time I have been trying to convince people to be aware of mucky/poor draining potting mixes. Once those leaves get rolled up (usually from wet/dry/wet) they will not un-roll. It is seldom fatal...it just looks crummy.

[Gardeneer]

Too much water : Poor drainage , IMO.
.
The temperatures (65 -72F) is fine, and almost near perfect.
Seeds are not to blame either.

Purple leaves can be due to Phosphorus deficiency.
How is your fertilizing method, frequency?
What kind of fertilizer are you using ?
How often do you water ? From top? From bottom? do plants sit in water ?

I wont water until the top one inch is fairly dry. That takes about 5 days. It depends on the size of the plant and the pot to some extent.

Why are you keeping the lights ONE FOOT away ? Though it might not be causing the problem !

[NArnold]

Thanks Guys,
Hmmm, where too start.
I water the containers from the top, I don't soak them though. I have yet to put enough water in them that it comes out the bottom. I used this method last year for lettuce and I know it will come out the bottom but maybe not well enough. All the other plants I have planted this way have worked, that is why I was chalking it up to a nutrients or a I don't know problem. I was watering once a day no matter what, too much water may be my problem. I don't think they sit in water but they are definitely wet.

Is one foot away a problem for the light height? I read that the closer the better and I did not want them to get stringy.

I have been using MG water soluble fertilizer, it is 20-20-20, I tried 4 plants at 1/4 strength and 4 plants at half strength. The rest of the plants I have not fertilized yet. I actually see no difference between any of them. They all look like crap.

I have 8oz cottage cheese containers as the pots with 10 holes drilled in the bottom. They are sitting on top of the lids of the containers for trays.

I don't know where to start, I have so many problems. I can get some gravel and put in the lids to raise the pots up. How big should the holes be in the bottom of the pot, I think they are about 1/16 of an inch now. I don't actually know how to drill the bottom out more with plants in the pots. Maybe just add holes to the sides at the very bottom?

Do I need to jump straight into drilling hole into the side of the containers, I will if you guys think I need too. I understand the point of this but it seems kind of strange. Is there really that much aeration that takes place from the bottom drain holes to the top of the pot? Would the holes in the side be placed at random, or towards the top, bottom, or middle?

Do I fertilize now or wait till the pots dry out more? I really have no idea what the severity of my problem is, or how long I have to correct it. I just know that my tomatoes look like crap and will not make it if I don't correct the problem.

I added a fan that turns on every 3 hours for a half an hour, I thought that might help them get some fresh air.

Do I implement all these things at once, or do I change 1 thing, and give it a week and change another if things don't seem to improve?

I have a tendency to over analyze stuff, in this case it is not helping. Actually it has completely sent my brain into an endless loop of confusion and indecisiveness.

Thanks Again
Nick