Bad Water?

Worth1 · March 29, 2015

I have had a devil of a time keeping my PH 7 or below in my two raised beds for some time now.
I wasn't for sure where the problem was and suspected the soil I bought was high.
Then about two years ago I had a volunteer tomato plant come up in the soil pile I had at the end of my drive.
It flourished like no other plant I had.
This was the same soil I had put in the garden.
What the heck is going on I told myself.
Then the other day I used the pressure canner.
I ran this thing with about a gallon of water in it, 'maybe more' to do a function test.
When I opened the lid there was about 1/16th of an inch of calcium deposit all around the inside.
I had a kidney stone problem a few years ago at just around 2 years after I moved here.
I went to running an RO system to get my drinking water from.
The stone problem went away.

The growing problem started at about the same time I had to start running the city water on it.

About once a week (and I could do more) I have to put vinegar on the garden at about 8 oz the gallon to keep the PH down below 7.

Now here are my methods for doing the PH test and my observations.

Now before someone wantst to get on here and say they are junk I know they can be.
What my late wife did a few years ago is buy me a cheap soil tester.
I figured out hoe to use the thing and started experamenting with it.
I would get soil and test.
Then I would add wood ash and test again.
I would add vinegar and test yest again.
Every time I did this I would get different results and they would be what I would expect.
Then I got the PH test kit because the garden had just stalled out completely.
The color showed me it was like 8.5.
I got the PH meter and used it.
It read about the same thing.
I had a tom of fertilizer (16-16-16 on the garden so I know that wasn't the problem.
So I hosed the garden down with the vinegar and in about a day or two the plants jumped out of their skin.

So back to the meter.
I dont care what the ph realy is as fare as dead on accuracy is I can tell if I am in the ball park by the way the plants show growth.
So far according to my observations any time the meter goes above 7 the growth slows down.
When the meter goes below 7 and to around 6 or 6.5 the growth starts back up again.
I also note the temperature to make sure that isn't the problem and take it into account.

Yesterday I did a test and it was fine.
Last night I soaked the soil down with the water hose and today the PH was back up to just above 7.
I mixed about 1/2 cup of vinegar to about a half gallon of water poured a little on and tested in the same spot again.
The ph read around 5.

The Pepper patch that I mixed the 50%50 soil to peat ratio in is doing much better than the one I didn't keeping the PH level right.

Take it for what you want even if the meter isn't dead on it has helped me greatly in keeping my plants going strong.

Worth

drew51 · March 29, 2015

You are testing the meter and I agree as long as it is in the ballpark, all you need!
We have discussed this before. The problem with vinegar is bacteria degrade it and the carbonate is right back. You are not removing it, just neutralizing it for a time. Why not remove it? Use sulfur, bacteria turn it into sulfuric acid, and that turns the carbonate into gypsum, still there, but much more stable and neutral. Sulfur takes 6 months to work.
If you monitor PH you can figure out how much to add. You can add some in September and by growing season it's working. I myself add it twice a year. Spring and fall. Every time you water you're adding more carbonates, and so even though the vinegar works, the carbonates are building up to very high levels. They come back when the vinegar is broken down, so it should be harder and harder to lower PH as time goes by, as the levels increase with continued watering.
Numerous other ways to lower PH, Add battery acid to your water, use ammonium sulfate for an immediate drop in PH. Use Holly-tone, it contains sulfur. use Chelated iron, use cottonseed meal, amend soil with peat moss. Use any combination of the above.
If you use sulfur, once it kicks in the change in PH will be a lot slower and you won't get huge swings in PH. You can use too much, but a couple flushes with water and it will rise quickly.

Worth1 · March 29, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew51

You are testing the meter and I agree as long as it is in the ballpark, all you need!
We have discussed this before. The problem with vinegar is bacteria degrade it and the carbonate is right back. You are not removing it, just neutralizing it for a time. Why not remove it? Use sulfur, bacteria turn it into sulfuric acid, and that turns the carbonate into gypsum, still there, but much more stable and neutral. Sulfur takes 6 months to work.
If you monitor PH you can figure out how much to add. You can add some in September and by growing season it's working. I myself add it twice a year. Spring and fall. Every time you water you're adding more carbonates, and so even though the vinegar works, the carbonates are building up to very high levels. They come back when the vinegar is broken down, so it should be harder and harder to lower PH as time goes by, as the levels increase with continued watering.
Numerous other ways to lower PH, Add battery acid to your water, use ammonium sulfate for an immediate drop in PH. Use Holly-tone, it contains sulfur. use Chelated iron, use cottonseed meal, amend soil with peat moss. Use any combination of the above.
If you use sulfur, once it kicks in the change in PH will be a lot slower and you won't get huge swings in PH. You can use too much, but a couple flushes with water and it will rise quickly.

Drew I plan on using aluminum sulfate because it acts fatser this week along with cotton seed meal in small amounts.

In the tomato area I am going to give it new soil on top with a 50/50 mix of peat this fall after the tomato plants croak.

I need to do all of this in small doses so as I dont over do anything.
I have four down spouts coming from my house and I may start collecting rain water in a huge tank.

Worth

RayR · March 29, 2015

Rain water should help a lot. Since your tap water is hard it's like throwing lime down every time you water.

drew51 · March 29, 2015

That should help a lot, Worth. Rainwater, you can never get enough of the stuff. I use it all myself and in small doses. Mostly for my blueberries which I have to keep at a ph of 4.5-5.5. The payoff is grand though!

Gardeneer · March 30, 2015

Another way to attack the problem (in combination with other things) is by amending the soil with organic matter, high acidity.:
Just a suggestion.

borgman · March 30, 2015

................

matereater · March 30, 2015

Interesting! I never would have thought doing something so simple as watering the garden could make such a big difference in soil PH. I'm on 'city' water so its never been an issue for me.

drew51 · March 30, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by matereater

Interesting! I never would have thought doing something so simple as watering the garden could make such a big difference in soil PH. I'm on 'city' water so its never been an issue for me.

City water is bad enough. I could never use it for blueberries. Mine has a ph of 7.8. All city water is basic, acidity destroys pipes.

Much of it depends where you live. Here in Michigan the west side is all sandy loam and very acidic. Lime is used all the time to fight the low ph. I'm on the east side and we have clay loam which is basic, so I'm in the same boat as worth. I fight to keep my soils neutral except for blueberries. And I use city water. I add peat and pine fines to my beds and use all of the techniques mentioned. Although the city water is basic it has a low amount of basic compounds, so it's easy to neutralize the city water here.
Sounds like worth's water is full of them, and not as easy.

Mike723 · March 30, 2015

I'm very spoiled here in Connecticut with exactly neutral ph from the city. The tds varies seasonally (20 points or so), but that's about it. The things we take for granted. Good luck Worth..

Ed of Somis · March 30, 2015

It is important to understand what exactly makes the water hard in certain communities. Mine is extremely hard. All "city water" is not created equal. In addition...your particular water hardness probably changes during the year. My water supplier buys water from 3 different suppliers. IN SoCal...MWD is the biggest supplier to municipalities. The % that a wholesaler sells to your local distributor depends on things like price, demand, and government regulations. Traditionally, ground water can be very hard. Depending on which wells are used (they rotate them) your ph will change. I buy inexpensive paper water ph testers...and they work really well.

PS Your water company has public attended meetings along with brochures to explain in detail your particular water details. Oftentimes hardness is expressed in GPG (grains per gallon). Anything over a reading of 10 is considered "very hard". Mine has read 39 before!

Worth1 · March 30, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed of Somis

It is important to understand what exactly makes the water hard in certain communities. Mine is extremely hard. All "city water" is not created equal. In addition...your particular water hardness probably changes during the year. My water supplier buys water from 3 different suppliers. IN SoCal...MWD is the biggest supplier to municipalities. The % that a wholesaler sells to your local distributor depends on things like price, demand, and government regulations. Traditionally, ground water can be very hard. Depending on which wells are used (they rotate them) your ph will change. I buy inexpensive paper water ph testers...and they work really well.

PS Your water company has public attended meetings along with brochures to explain in detail your particular water details. Oftentimes hardness is expressed in GPG (grains per gallon). Anything over a reading of 10 is considered "very hard". Mine has read 39 before!

Are you talking about grains as in weight, like you weigh gun powder?

If so I could boil off a gallon of water and weigh what was left.
Then I could put it over a flame it to see what color it was.

Keeping the sink clean is a never ending chore here.

Worth

Worth1 · March 30, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Another way to attack the problem (in combination with other things) is by amending the soil with organic matter, high acidity.:
Just a suggestion.

That is what I did to garden #1 was to put 50/50 peat moss garden soil in it.
On top of that is a layer of leaves as mulch.
The garden soil is stuff I had brought in by a truck 10 yards worth.

Worth

Worth1 · March 30, 2015

Folks I think I have finally found a use for one of those easy flow fertilizer injectors.

Worth

Worth1 · March 30, 2015

Folks I'm reluctant to show this cheap meter but from the results of the tomato plant it shows to be giving me the results I need.
The photo with the needle around 6 is the PH.
The photo with the needle around 5 is the fertility.
Now look at the tomato plant and see how it's doing.
It is a black Prince.
IMG_2015033013693.jpg

IMG_201503301992.jpg

March 30, 2015	#7
borgman Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Washington Posts: 9	................ Last edited by borgman; March 30, 2015 at 06:50 AM.

March 30, 2015	#8
matereater Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: S.E. Michigan (Livonia) Posts: 1,264	Interesting! I never would have thought doing something so simple as watering the garden could make such a big difference in soil PH. I'm on 'city' water so its never been an issue for me. __________________ Steve Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult

March 30, 2015	#11
Ed of Somis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Somis, Ca Posts: 649	It is important to understand what exactly makes the water hard in certain communities. Mine is extremely hard. All "city water" is not created equal. In addition...your particular water hardness probably changes during the year. My water supplier buys water from 3 different suppliers. IN SoCal...MWD is the biggest supplier to municipalities. The % that a wholesaler sells to your local distributor depends on things like price, demand, and government regulations. Traditionally, ground water can be very hard. Depending on which wells are used (they rotate them) your ph will change. I buy inexpensive paper water ph testers...and they work really well. PS Your water company has public attended meetings along with brochures to explain in detail your particular water details. Oftentimes hardness is expressed in GPG (grains per gallon). Anything over a reading of 10 is considered "very hard". Mine has read 39 before! Last edited by Ed of Somis; March 30, 2015 at 11:07 AM.

March 29, 2015	#1
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	Bad Water? I have had a devil of a time keeping my PH 7 or below in my two raised beds for some time now. I wasn't for sure where the problem was and suspected the soil I bought was high. Then about two years ago I had a volunteer tomato plant come up in the soil pile I had at the end of my drive. It flourished like no other plant I had. This was the same soil I had put in the garden. What the heck is going on I told myself. Then the other day I used the pressure canner. I ran this thing with about a gallon of water in it, 'maybe more' to do a function test. When I opened the lid there was about 1/16th of an inch of calcium deposit all around the inside. I had a kidney stone problem a few years ago at just around 2 years after I moved here. I went to running an RO system to get my drinking water from. The stone problem went away. The growing problem started at about the same time I had to start running the city water on it. About once a week (and I could do more) I have to put vinegar on the garden at about 8 oz the gallon to keep the PH down below 7. Now here are my methods for doing the PH test and my observations. Now before someone wantst to get on here and say they are junk I know they can be. What my late wife did a few years ago is buy me a cheap soil tester. I figured out hoe to use the thing and started experamenting with it. I would get soil and test. Then I would add wood ash and test again. I would add vinegar and test yest again. Every time I did this I would get different results and they would be what I would expect. Then I got the PH test kit because the garden had just stalled out completely. The color showed me it was like 8.5. I got the PH meter and used it. It read about the same thing. I had a tom of fertilizer (16-16-16 on the garden so I know that wasn't the problem. So I hosed the garden down with the vinegar and in about a day or two the plants jumped out of their skin. So back to the meter. I dont care what the ph realy is as fare as dead on accuracy is I can tell if I am in the ball park by the way the plants show growth. So far according to my observations any time the meter goes above 7 the growth slows down. When the meter goes below 7 and to around 6 or 6.5 the growth starts back up again. I also note the temperature to make sure that isn't the problem and take it into account. Yesterday I did a test and it was fine. Last night I soaked the soil down with the water hose and today the PH was back up to just above 7. I mixed about 1/2 cup of vinegar to about a half gallon of water poured a little on and tested in the same spot again. The ph read around 5. The Pepper patch that I mixed the 50%50 soil to peat ratio in is doing much better than the one I didn't keeping the PH level right. Take it for what you want even if the meter isn't dead on it has helped me greatly in keeping my plants going strong. Worth

March 29, 2015	#2
drew51 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Sterling Heights, MI Zone 6a/5b Posts: 1,302	You are testing the meter and I agree as long as it is in the ballpark, all you need! We have discussed this before. The problem with vinegar is bacteria degrade it and the carbonate is right back. You are not removing it, just neutralizing it for a time. Why not remove it? Use sulfur, bacteria turn it into sulfuric acid, and that turns the carbonate into gypsum, still there, but much more stable and neutral. Sulfur takes 6 months to work. If you monitor PH you can figure out how much to add. You can add some in September and by growing season it's working. I myself add it twice a year. Spring and fall. Every time you water you're adding more carbonates, and so even though the vinegar works, the carbonates are building up to very high levels. They come back when the vinegar is broken down, so it should be harder and harder to lower PH as time goes by, as the levels increase with continued watering. Numerous other ways to lower PH, Add battery acid to your water, use ammonium sulfate for an immediate drop in PH. Use Holly-tone, it contains sulfur. use Chelated iron, use cottonseed meal, amend soil with peat moss. Use any combination of the above. If you use sulfur, once it kicks in the change in PH will be a lot slower and you won't get huge swings in PH. You can use too much, but a couple flushes with water and it will rise quickly.

March 29, 2015	#4
RayR Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Cheektowaga, NY Posts: 2,466	Rain water should help a lot. Since your tap water is hard it's like throwing lime down every time you water.

March 30, 2015	#6
Gardeneer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7 Posts: 4,918	Another way to attack the problem (in combination with other things) is by amending the soil with organic matter, high acidity.: Just a suggestion.

March 30, 2015	#10
Mike723 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: CT Posts: 290	I'm very spoiled here in Connecticut with exactly neutral ph from the city. The tds varies seasonally (20 points or so), but that's about it. The things we take for granted. Good luck Worth..