De-hybridized tomatos

[silverseed]

This is one subject that the more I read about the more questions that I seem to have, Perhaps someone on here more familiar with the subject can clarify things for me, What are the pros and cons of the de-hybridized open pollinated versions VS. the original hybrid versions and are these true o.p representations of the original or not ? Also which O.P versions are available and what are some of the best ? I will try to attach an article about one such example below. Thanks. http://www.takepart.com/article/2014...ly-girl-tomato

[joseph]

In my garden, I am growing two open pollinated varieties that I know are descended from commercial hybrids.

I have not made even the slightest attempt to keep the tomatoes looking like their ancestors.

I grow an orange cherry tomato which was descended from Sungold. When I save a packet of seeds from these it gets labeled "orange cherry tomato".

I grow red slicing tomatoes, some of which were descended from Celebrity. When I save a packet of seed from these, it gets labeled "Red slicing tomato, determinate, early".

The benefits to me of dehybridizing hybrids is that I get to play the genetic lottery much more often, so I get many more opportunities to find families that really thrive in my garden. I get the benefit of inexpensive seed. I get a little more disconnected from mega-ag.

The disadvantage is that I end up growing mutts. So heirloom snobs won't buy tomatoes from me at the farmer's market.

[KarenO]

Hello,
Technically, virtually all open pollinated tomatoes are stabilized hybrids. The occasional somatic mutation makes up the rest.

It would be unlikely that a stabilized OP tomato would have the identical traits of the F1 hybrid parent even if they may seem quite similar.

KarenO

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by silverseed

This is one subject that the more I read about the more questions that I seem to have, Perhaps someone on here more familiar with the subject can clarify things for me, What are the pros and cons of the de-hybridized open pollinated versions VS. the original hybrid versions and are these true o.p representations of the original or not ? Also which O.P versions are available and what are some of the best ? I will try to attach an article about one such example below. Thanks. http://www.takepart.com/article/2014...ly-girl-tomato

Silver, you know quite a bit more about dehybridizing hybrids than you let on.

I'm sure you remember when you sent me seeds for PSR-37, the OP version of Early Girl that Tim Peters developed, maybe not, so here it is:

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...pen+Pollinated

I no longer can link to the idig article where Bill Jeffers, aka Gordon Gumbo, aka Papavic, aka Travis here, went into great detail about the background of Early Girl and how it was bred in France, etc.

There is a thread here now about the demise of idig so no way for me to pull it up at all, which is really sad b'c many folks lost all their data, pictures, etc.

You want to know the pros and cons of F1's and their OP versions, and you want to know how they can compare.

I can only speak personally to my dehybridization of Ramapo F1 and how someone who was a commercial farmer in NJ thought my OP was spot on with the F1. it really depends on what the parental input is in constructing an F1, so most success has been with the earliest hybrids done since later hybrids have more complex parental inputs.

I can also speak to the OP version of Santa F1 grape tomato, developed by the Known You Seed Co in Taiwan and popularized by Andrew Chu in FL, and known as the first popularly known grape tomato. What Andrew told me, which I passed on to many with his approval, allowed everyone to have their own stable OP version of the hybrid, which was also spot on.

Also, what you linked to is fullof wrong statements, especially about Monsanto buying out Seminis and the hue and cry going up about them making all sorts of changes, deleting stocks, converting OP's to F1's, etc.

They bought Seminis as a monetary investment and only that, and made no changes.

I'd do almost anything to get back that idig thread where Jeffers and some others went through the history of EarlyGirl F1, how it was for three years given to Burpee as an exclusive, etc.

All to say that I didn't know you were here at Tville, so welcome, many have come here after idig became extinct, In that thread here about idig I think Mischka said there were 436 new applications for Membership after idig closed.

I do know your background, as you know, and what you became involved with and that should allow you to make some good contributions, not so much of the political kind since that's not allowed here, but in a larger sense as to your own activities.

Carolyn

[silverseed]

Thank you very much Carolyn, Could you tell me where I might be able to get some of the Ramapo seed that you dehybridized ? I would like to grow it next season.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by silverseed

Thank you very much Carolyn, Could you tell me where I might be able to get some of the Ramapo seed that you dehybridized ? I would like to grow it next season.

Go to the Seed Exchange, found lower on this page, go to the WANTED subforum Forum and ask if anyone has seeds they can share with you and/or where you can find same.

From Tania's superb data base:

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/R...b=General_Info

And now the Google Search:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...P+tomato+seeds

Last I knew it was at the F9 and perfectly stable.

Again, hopefully someone here at Tville will answer first.

I didn't carry it forward after I sent the F3 seeds to Ed Ryan, since he was the one who was a commercial farmer, grew Ramapo F1 for many years and said even at the F3 it was good.

Carolyn

[Wi-sunflower]

Carolyn,

I beg to differ with your statement that Monsanto made no changes. Several of the varieties that I depended on for my farmers market biz were summarily discontinued. In a couple of cases the variety was originally Asgrow's but there were somewhat similar varieties in the blended catalog so it seems the Asgrow variety got axed. The "similar" varieties were not enough like the axed variety to suit my customers (mostly ethnic) so I lost a lot of that part of the market.

Carol

[AlittleSalt]

I'm at the point to where growing out a hybrid cross is very intriguing to me. With two possible growing seasons per year, I can be stubborn enough to give it a try. I need to continue learning so that I can give something/s special back to this world.

There will be mutts along the way.

I see this as nothing ventured - nothing gained.

[Cole_Robbie]

If anyone is taking requests, I would really like an OP version of Johnny's Orange Blossom F1

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Carolyn,

I beg to differ with your statement that Monsanto made no changes. Several of the varieties that I depended on for my farmers market biz were summarily discontinued. In a couple of cases the variety was originally Asgrow's but there were somewhat similar varieties in the blended catalog so it seems the Asgrow variety got axed. The "similar" varieties were not enough like the axed variety to suit my customers (mostly ethnic) so I lost a lot of that part of the market.

Carol

Carol, allow me to clarify.

It was NOT Monsanto who deleted many varieties, it was the individual commercial seed Companies such as Fedco and some others who said they would no longer offer varieties bred by mostly Petoseed, which was one of the 5 companies Monsanto bought that comprised Seminis Seeds.

And they did that b'c they were anti-Monsanto. Their choice.

So again, it was NOT Monsanto themselves who deleted varieties, it was individual commercial companies who essentially boycotted Monsanto and yes, the result was that many varieties that individuals once were able to get, were no longer available.

First, a link to an excellent blog about this:

http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/a-l...-sell-monsanto

Second, a Google search;

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...ed+by+monsanto

I hope that clarifies the situation for you.

Carolyn

[travis]

I share Silverseed's interest in dehybridized tomato cultivars, and selecting the best examples from among the recombining F-generations.

However, one will run into widely variable results when dehybridizing commercial F1 hybrid cultivars, with some of them yielding complete dogs and others yielding superior open pollinated examples.

For example, I have gotten nearly uniformly good results dehybridizing Tasti-Lee (although the individual recombinations are not uniform between themselves, and not necessarily all as good as the F1 hybrid original). On the other hand, the various F2, F3, and F4 Kumato recombinations I've grown vary substantially in fruit size, resistance to black shoulder rot, flavor, skin thickness and other considerations.

This is curious since Tasti-Lee's pedigree includes over a dozen parental inputs, while Kumato's two parent lines are very similar in characteristics. So, it seems it can be a crapshoot even when choosing hybrids for dehybridizing that have similar parental inputs.

One reason for dehybridizing commercial hybrid tomatoes, for me anyway, is to obtain open pollinated lines with increased disease resistance and heat tolerance. That is what I have concentrated on since I then outcross the results to heirloom types with superior flavor profiles. So, I am not so worried about the shortfall in flavor in the open pollinated lines from commercial hybrids since I can introduce flavor by outcrossing to tasty open pollinated lines.

Another consideration is increased fruit production. I've seen significant fruit production increase in a few of the custom hybrids that I've made myself, as well as in a few of the custom crosses made by others, especially a fellow named Jason from the Virginia Eastern Shore. This production increase is not necessarily expressed in all the hybrid types I've worked with regardless of their sources whether from professional breeders or from some of us hobby breeders. So, be very careful to observe closely and to give all the plants sufficient nutrition and cultural care to allow for the best results.

Now, to end this overly long post, I will leave you with this: There are some very interesting hybrids now on the market that offer combinations of two well respected heirloom or heritage types, as well as combinations of heritage or heirloom types with modern disease resistant breeding lines. A subsidiary of Ball Seed Co. is producing several of these new hybrid types that I believe will segregate out some great tomatoes in future F-generations.

This summer, I am growing a few of these new "heritage hybrid" type offerings and can report that the one that is Jaune Flamme x Peron Sprayless appears at this time to be the front runner in fruit production and plant health. I think it's called Perfect Flame, and I believe it will yield some very good future recombinations.

One that is not performing as I had hoped is claimed to be a hybrid improvement of Amana Orange, I believe they said. It is a very healthy plant but has yet to set much fruit. One other I am growing is a cross between Brandywine and Costoluto Genovese, I think it's called Genuwine, and so far it's a monster vine with sufficient sets of somewhat contorted and flattened fruit which I remain undecided on.

Oh, and a word of caution: Many grape and saladette type hybrids of recent development, especially those with compact indeterminate or determinate growth patterns, are the result of crosses that include one male sterile parent. And now there is one large beefsteak determinate that I have run across that has a male sterile parent. In these cases, 1/4 of your F2 population will be sterile and not produce tomatoes unless you manually apply pollen to the blossoms.

With the plum saladettes, the male sterile gene often is linked to an anthocyanin absent gene, so the little seed sprouts will have clear, glassy, light green stems, and you can cull them out of each successive seeding. But in the case of the one beefsteak hybrid that has a male sterile parent, the ms gene is not linked to the aa gene, and it will be an undetected non-producer until you see all the blossoms dry up and fall off the vine with no resulting fruit.

[carolyn137]

Bill, I know of the heritage ones such asPerfectFlame and Genuine b'c others here have discussed them and I think some have actually grownsome.

Randy Gardner also has some larger beefsteaks with lots of inbred tolerances, I don't if yet released but I know that Fusion has been trialing some of them, which I also used to do for Randy, but no more. And his newest ones also have some heirloom genes bred in for taste. Fred Hempel also has some new beefsteaks ones, I don't know the exact parentges or tolerances, but something to look forward to as well.

When Randy released Mt Magic and Plum Regal and Smarty, all F1's, I thought you and some other were using the first two to work with since both had ph2 and ph3 and some other tolerances bred in.

Did anything come of those breeding efforts?

I have two varieties bred by Jason, I don't know if either one is the one you refer to ( both out for seed production), but I'm encouraging him and one other person to get some good stuff out to the public and have said to both of them that I'd be glad to list them in a seed offer when they are fully stable.

If only 40 years ago I knew what I know now, I'd be out there in a NY minute doing crosses and who knows what else.

Carolyn

[travis]

Carolyn said, "When Randy released Mt Magic and Plum Regal and Smarty, all F1's, I thought you and some other were using the first two to work with since both had ph2 and ph3 and some other tolerances bred in."

Smarty and Plum Regal (and Plum Crimson as well) have the ms-10/aa male sterility genetics incorporated. Mountain Magic does not.

The two segregating hybrids from Jason that I am growing this summer are Sailor's Luck F2 and Gail x Everett's Rusty Oxheart F2, both of which are producing fruit like 40 going North. Unbelievable frujt set from the very bottom of the vines upward without a break.

[Wi-sunflower]

No Carolyn, it WAS Seminis that deleted the varieties I used to get. They are NOT available ANYWHERE. I have gone directly to Seminis about this. I generally buy in larger amounts from commercial sellers, not places like Fedco. These same companies now carry the other varieties that supposedly were "similar", but aren't really. So it isn't a Monsanto / Seminis bias as they are carrying plenty of the Seminis seeds.

Carol

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

No Carolyn, it WAS Seminis that deleted the varieties I used to get. They are NOT available ANYWHERE. I have gone directly to Seminis about this. I generally buy in larger amounts from commercial sellers, not places like Fedco. These same companies now carry the other varieties that supposedly were "similar", but aren't really. So it isn't a Monsanto / Seminis bias as they are carrying plenty of the Seminis seeds.

Carol

OK Carol, but I think I'm missing something here b'c Seminis is not a separate CO, it's the WORD used to describe the 5 different companies that comprise Seminis.

So you must have contacted Petoseed I would imagine, or perhaps even Asgrow.

(These same companies now carry the other varieties that supposedly were "similar", but aren't really. So it isn't a Monsanto / Seminis bias as they are carrying plenty of the Seminis seeds.)

I think what you are saying is what I referred to above in that several companies, large and small, no longer will carry seeds by any of the companies that comprise the Seminis conglomerate b/c Seminis isnow owned by Monsanto.

That I understand.

Carolyn, who used to peruse the many commercial seed catalogs that Charlie, her farmer friend, when she was at his greenhouses doing her transplanting, and yes, good places to buy seeds in bulk of almost everything, but just speaking to tomatoes, not so great and TGS sells a much larger # of varieties, and in bulk...